Jinbao tubas, bad and good

[Lingon]

As many threads containing something about Asian horns sooner or later capsizing to Jinbao good or bad I think it is better with a dedicated thread about that matter. So here is one more trying to discuss all about pros and cons of Jinbaos. Please keep it on topic so other threads can be freed up to their respective topics. Eventually if used with some sense this may be a chance that could lead to a good discussion and better instruments.

As we heard there seems to be some people with good experiences and those with absolutely super bad experiences of these instruments. In Japan it is usual to work with continuous improvement or Kaizen. I do not know about China but maybe our TN members that work with China will chime in on that.

I'll start up with one question.

Are these Jinbao instruments built different for different markets or sellers or are they all made equal and is there something corresponding to Kaizen going on or discussed in the factories?

[Wyvern]

Are these Jinbao instruments built different for different markets or sellers or are they all made equal...

JinBao (and other factories - there are many in China!) are prepared to customise instruments for different sellers, so they are not necessarily the same from different sources. For example JinBao are making some changes to the 700 EEb specifically for Wessex Tubas and the British market of which I will announce more once I have prototypes, expected May.

The compensated BBb tuba I am getting changes made to improve tuning and in response to customer feedback I plan to enhance other instruments as time goes on and we get feedback on the existing models...these will all be improvements specifically for Wessex Tubas...

[sousaphone68]

I own a JinBao 700 that I bought from a tubenet sponsor as luck would have it I call it Carricks Law instead of Murphys law because I am a world weary self employed engineer a Besson 981 became available to me a month after I bought my JB700 as a favour to the band director I play the Besson once a month while its awaiting a new player. If I knew it was going to come free to me I may not have bought the JB700 but having being subject to the whim of a band commitee in my youth that resulted in me turning up to the national youth orchestra with a sub standard tuba I swore never to be dependant on a band for my tuba ever again. I was lucky to land a dep gig one summer with the RTESO and one performance and 3 rehearsals earned me enough to buy my Besson New Standard that I used and abused for 25 years this gave me a freedom that I loved.

After breaking in my JB700 which took about 6 weeks I love it I have recently thanks to CKtuba got my hands on the perfect mouth piece for me in a heritage DW1L and i feel that I am making the best noise I have ever made in 30 years of the playing the tuba. I wont sell my new standard as I love it too much with its DW 2 my only complaint about my 26k sousa is its lack of a 4th valve if any body wants to trade a 28k with some cash from me for a 26k let me know.
Anyway back to topic I as an amateur bandsman love my JB 700 that I purchased from stock from Wessex Tubas that arrived when promised with unexpected extras (carriage strap)
I have played it nearly every day since June 2011 and other than lacquer wear where my hands and wedding ring touch I have had no problems.
Neptune as his experience has grown has shared his improvements for free with me. Eg better felts and spring dampners and a spare set of valve guides.
I am a self confessed world class cynic (my spelling may be suspect) but I found all of my dealings regarding my two Asian Tubas to be easy one was in stock one was on order both came in when promised and tested prior to shipping.
I have rambled a little for which I apologize but it is late here in Ireland my tuba choice has worked for me.

[Lectron]

Bad:

• One can not make flanges out of chromed cheese on such big instruments (one has taken damage)
  Valve being too small for the housing are not the best solution to good compression
  Valve stems that are hard to get 100% in line with the valve is just a poor deign, and wouldn't cost more to do right
  The junction of the different bows and slides could never pass any industry standards.
  finish not 100%
  Too many sharp edges (finger cuts and clothing ruined)

good:

• Price
  finish (for the price)
  Sound is remarkable good despite all the flaws (on selected models) and worth the price

I've ordered several instruments directly from JinBao, and they are very open for any modifications.
IMO....Many of their designs are good (of course they are..they are clones), but they need to address the mechanical issues.

[Lingon]

...Bad:...
...good:...
...I've ordered several instruments directly from JinBao... and they are very open for any modifications...

Good that was some facts. Are those based on one of each instrument or more?
You said you ordered directly from JB which is interesting because then the question arises, is that quality and QC typical of the factory?

I know that other TN members has other/better experiences from the stuff directly from JB which is a bit thoughtful. Can we expect JB to always produce their highest quality or do the have different qualities depending on which the buyer is?

Both

Are these Jinbao instruments built different for different markets or sellers or are they all made equal...

JinBao (and other factories - there are many in China!) are prepared to customise instruments for different sellers, so they are not necessarily the same from different sources. For example JinBao are making some changes to the 700 EEb specifically for Wessex Tubas and the British market of which I will announce more once I have prototypes, expected May.

and

The compensated BBb tuba I am getting changes made to improve tuning and in response to customer feedback I plan to enhance other instruments as time goes on and we get feedback on the existing models...these will all be improvements specifically for Wessex Tubas...

are good but also clearly double edged swords. Because if one version of the JBs is customised for one seller then there is always the risk that someone buys another version of the 'same' JB horn and has different experiences than of the Wessex versions, as happened for example Lectron that bought directly from JB. We know that the JB horns are basically the same and therefore the person with maybe bad experiences could spread the word that JB is a bunch of crap if that certain instrument was bad. Then that falls over the good ones too. Therefore as I can understand it, it would be better for all parts if JB did improve in all ways for every markets. Then maybe there would be a lot more satisfied customers?

Most of this is also up to the users and what they accept without returning the instruments. It seems to be different in different markets. For example here in Sweden there are a lot of textile items from China. Much of it is bad. But when I go to Japan I can buy the same stuff but now high quality made in China. The Japanese does seems to have much higher demands on the stuff than the Swedes, resulting in higher quality in the stores. So, is it the same with these instruments. A couple of sellers crave that the instruments are good when they arrive, and some accepts lower quality? Once again, is JB quality varying depending on the buyer or does it vary for all, or to put it this way are there different quality levels depending on where they send the stuff? I do not mean to condemn variations and modifications, but it is about the overall quality.

[Lectron]

...Bad:...
...good:...
...I've ordered several instruments directly from JinBao... and they are very open for any modifications...

Good that was some facts. Are those based on one of each instrument or more?
You said you ordered directly from JB which is interesting because then the question arises, is that quality and QC typical of the factory?

The euphonium (1150) and the JBFB-600 was the most lucky ones when it comes to mechanical issues, valves, compression etc,
but as we all know by now, some paid for that knowledge , the F tuba is pretty useless.

When I discussed changes, we where more talking tweaking and ergonomics but they would
take notice of some design changes + a request for a new instrument and pass it willingly away to the engineers.

I was quite open with them, saying that any requests for changes would be better coming from a 'coalition' of
customers, as I would represent a very small %% of their sales. I've only been buying ~10 instruments for personal use
and curiosity. As mentioned. I will keep the 700 and also the euph. The 700 be-course it's a std. Brass Band outfit
and I do not feel like purchasing a 981 as it really doesn't sound that much better (except the fact that it's built like a German tank)
Another thing is that I'm not too fond of those compensated instruments. It's like blowing through a 50ft gardena hose.

I have a few Ideas and with a few others we're trying some of them out, but time takes time
It's nice to be able to finally combine my acoustics, engineer and musician background

[MackBrass]

All the factories that I have dealt with, which are the same that Neptune has dealt with are great at customizing to my needs. The main instruments I deal with are the copies and its because they do work. I do try order something different on each order so I can experiment with it and if it makes the grade I will put it oup on my website. The latest was the bass trumpet. There are some models that are just so bad in their design that recommending any changes are just not worth it.

[Bob Kolada]

I bought a used Schiller labeled comp euph for a friend who wants to get back into playing. It's not the most open in the low range (3Gish seems to be the best size, larger does not help), but it is definitely a player. Personally, I want THAT body with the rotary valve set from the smaller euph. The comp euph has enough little turns and bends that there should be enough length to add a rotary valve set.
I would prefer it in a 4+2 , but could settle for 4.

I haven't played all the popular models (nor have I played several examples of all the ones I HAVE tried), but the comp euph, Hirsbrunner copy, and current contrabone seem to be the best models. The 2341 copy didn't play quite as well as the King; the 1291 copy seemed ok but I'd like to try it next to the real thing. I've no interest in the 186 C copy.

[ghmerrill]

I would prefer it in a 4+2 , but could settle for 4.

At least 5, please.

[Wyvern]

are good but also clearly double edged swords. Because if one version of the JBs is customised for one seller then there is always the risk that someone buys another version of the 'same' JB horn and has different experiences than of the Wessex versions, as happened for example Lectron that bought directly from JB.

The thing is I, and most other dealers are not selling these as JinBao instruments (and only about half of Wessex instruments actually come from JinBao anyway), but their own brand. I think only the 'horn enthusiasts' such as on this forum know or care which factory in China an instrument is made. 95% of buyers just know it by its western brand name and if have good experience will recommend that brand to other musicians. That is the nature of the market.

So I am not so concerned if instruments supplied to buyer in another country are of lower standard than Wessex.

Hearing from my wife how Chinese business works, I do believe the more respect the factory has for the buyer, the more care they will take in production of goods supplied. It was very noticeable how much greater respect I was treated on my recent visit to JinBao than when I turned up as a new customer May last year and that may be reflected in the better finish of the instruments in recent orders

[k001k47]

You see, I want to talk about mine, but I've been waiting approximately seven hundred thousand minutes for it. So, I'll just let you guys talk about these tubas.

How did that 450 project go by the way, neptune? The silver one I played at the Tuba Exchange booth was kind of neat. . . more ergonomically comfortable than I thought it would be.

[Bacchanalia]

Thank God this thread on Chinese tubas has been more respectful and civil than any I've read so far. Just two cents from a frequent lurker )

[Gilligan]

As a Schiller owner who's has the Hurschbrunner clone, I can say that after 14 months of owning my horn I still like it as much or more than I did when it arrived.
I posted a full review of the horn when it arrived last year.Here's a link to it if your interested.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43772&p=378910#p378910

[Lectron]

I just realized that after using the JBEB 700 for some ~100 hours I do no
longer have to worry about popping sound when pulling slides



Oh...Oh no...That's a bad thing, right

Moving over to a heavier oil. Guess these valvles comes pré-worn

[MartyNeilan]

I just realized that after using the JBEB 700 for some ~100 hours I do no
longer have to worry about popping sound when pulling slides



Oh...Oh no...That's a bad thing, right

Moving over to a heavier oil. Guess these valvles comes pré-worn

You do a lot of slide pulling on a 3+1 EEb comper?

[Lectron]

I just realized that after using the JBEB 700 for some ~100 hours I do no
longer have to worry about popping sound when pulling slides



Oh...Oh no...That's a bad thing, right

Moving over to a heavier oil. Guess these valvles comes pré-worn

You do a lot of slide pulling on a 3+1 EEb comper?

Nope, but I do still appreciate compression and intonation not varying depending too much on how much lube that's left on the piston

[Wyvern]

You seem to have got a bad one Lectron! No problem with compression on the EEb I have been using since last August.

[tuba-tobias]

You do a lot of slide pulling on a 3+1 EEb comper?

I guess when it comes to draining most of us have to pull, slides or zippers.

[Lectron]

You seem to have got a bad one Lectron! No problem with compression on the EEb I have been using since last August.

Well...I use Hetmans2 oil, and going for something heavier wouldn't harm the action much
It is after all ridiculous light...

[Lingon]

...I just realized that after using the JBEB 700 for some ~100 hours I do no longer have to worry about popping sound when pulling slides...

Too bad.

...You seem to have got a bad one Lectron! No problem with compression on the EEb I have been using...

And herein lies a big problem with these instruments. Are they really so uneven? Did Lectron had super bad luck when getting more than one instrument with trouble? Or maybe did he get the ones that were rejected by other customers? Who knows?!

Clearly this is not good especially since we know that some of these instruments are very good. Therefore once again the question arises. Does JB put together their instruments in different quality levels or are they just inconsistent all over and some of the importers has very good luck, some not?

Bear with me that I repeat the comparison with Yamaha. where I just order an instrument and usually there are minimal variations between them. Now I understand that some of the JB sellers does adjust and prepare the instruments so they are fine when they reach the buyer, but not everyone does with the result that some of these instrument arrives to the buyer in condition like what happened to Lectron. Quality control at the source should be a primary concern I think, if, at least, the more skeptical persons should be interested and confident in these instruments. And if JB and other Chinese makers lives up to that standards they should earn a much better reputation I think.

Otoh, and this is off topic in this thread but interesting as a comparison, I have a related story of a colleague that some years ago ordered a Bach bass trombone. It was at that time the importers and stores had more than one instrument in stock to try out. Well, he did test about thirty (30) of them and no one was as good as it should be. eventually he was on his way to skip the project altogether, but somehow the store did get a return from another customer and at last he got an instrument that he liked. Please do not start flaming now because it was just an example and don't meant as a war declaration...