Triple Tonguing Issue

[NotABaritone]

Hello folks, I was wondering if you could help diagnose my problem from across the internet . My t-t-k (triplets), once at a particular speed, ALWAYS turn into ta- tk (Eight-2 sixteenths). To me this looks as though my first T is too long? However I am not absolutely sure. Anyone else experience this?

Thanks for the input

NotABaritone

[ppalan]

Hi,
I've had similar issues with so-called triple tonguing; i.e. lapsing into an eighth, two sixteenth pattern after a bit. What works for me is changing the traditional method book pattern, tuh-tuh-kuh, to tuh-kuh-tuh instead with a bit of an accent on the 1st syllable. I also practice the music fairly slowly at first to get tongue and fingers coordinated. A good example is the passage that starts about 40 measures or so from the end of the last section of the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique. As I said, it works for me.

Pete

[iiipopes]

I use more of a t-k-d (the third articulation just back from the tip of the tongue) so that the tip of the tongue can get back to the initial articulation point more smoothly and keep the triplets even.

[chronolith]

I use the method that Bloke refers to.

As a trumpet player in college in never bothered with ta-ta-ka unless it was a stand alone pattern rather than sustained triplets. Example: opening solo of Mahler 5.

For every situation when I had to stack up triplets I just stuck with ta-ka patterns. Instead of (caps just for beat emphasis):

TA-ta-ka, TA-ta-ka, TA-ta-ka, TA-ta-ka, TA-ta-ka, TA-ta-ka...

I would use:

TA-ka-ta, KA-ta-ka, TA-ka-ta, KA-ta-ka, TA-ka-ta, KA-ta-ka...

Again, I may be the weird-o so... grain of salt.

[euphoni]

Hey NAB,

This is a very common thing brass players face when learning to multiple tongue.

The underlying issue is (not) having total and complete control over the tongue. Here are a couple exercises that should help you gain supreme control of your tongue:

-Single tongue exercises - complete control over your tongue starts with a fast, efficient single tongue. Listen for even rhythms and consistant articulations. Every day you should be single tonguing 16th notes @ 120 - 132 bpm.

-TTK vs. DDG - try the syllables Da Da Ga as opposed to Ta Ta Ka. To me, DDG requires less muscle and rolls off the tongue easier.

-Ka Ka exercises - one of the hardest things to develop and control is the back of the tongue, which controls the KA. Try scales with a simple pattern on each note, like four 16ths and a quartet note (Ka Ka Ka Ka Kaaa). Listen for 100% consistency with your Ka.

-SLOW, perfect triple tongue with metronome - do the Arban triple tonguing exercises slow. Listen for perfectly placed rhythm. Only accept the perfect. Make your tongue do what you want it to do. This is where the tongue discipline comes in.

-Fast (to fail) Arban triple tongue exercises - Complete control is the issue, so being able to tongue at every tempo is complete control. To fail means tonguing fast and for long periods of time until your tongue doesnt move and feels like a rock. Then stretch it and continue to fail again.

Be diligent with these exercises and you will have a perfect triple tongue.

Devil's Tongue anyone??

[J.c. Sherman]

I also "Ta-Ka-Da"...

That said, as with any problem which occurs at fast speeds, it occurs when one moved to the operation too quickly. I'll simply echo that to have a controlled triple-tongue you must have a K tongue completely under your control. If you're one to say "it's too fast to single tongue and too slow to multiple tongue" then you're doing it wrong. You should be able to multiple tongue at quarter = 5 weeks up to ? The pattern breaks down only because it's not mastered at slower speed.

Floyd Cooley taught me as well that we often resort to the multiple tongue too early. A good horn player will teach you the art of rapid and clear articulation. They have to be masters at it - they're pointing the wrong way with a mouthpiece too small

Slow it down, practice whole etudes for a few weeks with only your K, and progress slowly. You'll fix it.

J.c.S.

P.S. Ron Munson is the MASTER articulation teacher!

[luke_hollis]

I second the suggestion of using the syllables deh, deh, geh.

[NotABaritone]

Thanks guys!

My teacher has always used the alternating 'emphasis' on the double tongue. Before studying with him I locked onto t-t-k, and would prefer to keep consistent. However, because I am having issues, I will try both, and focus on the K.

Once again , Bloke is right. I didn't realize how many people actually use that method.

Thanks again

[brassbow]

I had this problem as well. I used a tuner AND a metronome. Set the metronome on a slow tripolet beat. now play an open G give each sylible a full beat TA TA KA speed up metronome only when accruate with previous slow count. Now once you have the proper tripolet figure pull out the metronone starting slow TA TA KA and make sure the needle stays in the middle (i.E IN TUNE) speed up ONLY when accuracy has been achieved. This tuner practice works also on single and double tounging. It really helps get you to feel AND hear accurate articulation.

[brassbow]

Forgot to mention that TTK gives a better feel for the beat IMO

[J.c. Sherman]

Forgot to mention that TTK gives a better feel for the beat IMO

I think this is one of those issues where practitioners of both patterns, TTK and TKT will be wed to their use. Personally, I feel the TKT (more TKD for me) yields a better "waltz" feel to rapid triplets. TMMV

J.c.S.