bass trumpet

[Elbee]

Just curious...what use is it? Is there any literature to speak of? Orchestral use? Loren

[Posaune2]

Considering that almost ALL ORCHESTRAL brass instruments in the last hundred years have swung towards larger bores and bells, it seems curious to deny this development to the bass trumpet.

Two problems with this that I can see:

1. While the low brass have gotten radically bigger in the past fifty years or so, the trumpets to a certain extent have gone the other way soundwise. Almost universal use of C trumpet as the primary instrument (in the USA anyway) and much more frequent use of the smaller horns in D and upwards. While trumpets haven't gotten any softer over the years, I think you could make a case that they have gotten more brilliant. Playing a large B-flat bass trumpet or marching vtb might make it easier to blend with the low brass, but you aren't going to sound like a member of the trumpet section.

2. When you look at the Wagner and Strauss parts in particular, they lie comfortably in the middle and upper range of an alto trombone. For me, the key to playing those parts, (which are by far the most substantial bass trumpet parts I get to play) is to get a sound that matches the brilliance of the trumpets, not the heft of the trombone section. Even my Meinl Weston C bass trumpet has a little too much "cornet" in the sound for me. (The bore of that horn starts out smaller than a typical small bore trombone, and the bell throat ends up a little larger than my 42b. The bell diameter is small, but the throat is huge.)

I think the key to playing the bass trumpet in an orchestra is to cheat on your friends in the low brass section and have an affair with the trumpets. If you try to remain faithful to the trombone section, it just won't sound right.

[bbocaner]

I think the key to playing the bass trumpet in an orchestra is to cheat on your friends in the low brass section and have an affair with the trumpets. If you try to remain faithful to the trombone section, it just won't sound right.

Spot on. My criteria for judging a bass trumpet's sound is to play something in the upper register, close my eyes, and consider whether I could be fooled into thinking I'm listening to a regular (soprano) trumpet. Alexander, Thein, Laetzsch, Helmut Voigt do it well. The Lidl isn't bad and I imagine the chinese clones of the Lidl are similar. I haven't heard enough of the melton version to tell. Miraphone does not fool me. The american piston valve instruments I have played do not. A flugabone or some sort of marching trombone or baritone is even further away. I imagine a really special mouthpiece could help, but I'm skeptical it'd get you all the way there, and it'd probably cause tuning issues and make the low register difficult?

[Bob Kolada]

I used to have a Chinese rotary bass trumpet and an Olds marcher. I could tell a strong difference between them; it seemed to be due to bell size and overall heaviness. A bass trumpet is kinda supposed to be squawky-able. A 6.5 in the bass trumpet was more trumpet-like than a 12C in the bass trumpet.

While the low brass have gotten radically bigger in the past fifty years or so, the trumpets to a certain extent have gone the other way soundwise. Almost universal use of C trumpet as the primary instrument (in the USA anyway) and much more frequent use of the smaller horns in D and upwards.

I've never understood this. "Mandatory" big trombones and big tubas, "mandatory" smaller trumpets?? It's probably so they can be heard over/against everyone else (the whole ego thing).

[Lingon]

...I imagine a really special mouthpiece could help, but I'm skeptical it'd get you all the way there, and it'd probably cause tuning issues and make the low register difficult?...

I think for example the Bach 22D was described as a bass trumpet mouthpiece in an old Bach catalog. For a trombone it is really small, but for a bass trumpet it is good, making the instrument sound as low member of the trumpet family.

[bbocaner]

I think for example the Bach 22D was described as a bass trumpet mouthpiece in an old Bach catalog. For a trombone it is really small, but for a bass trumpet it is good, making the instrument sound as low member of the trumpet family.

Well, the bach 22d may do a pretty good job of getting a bach bass trumpet to sound trumpety rather than trombone-y. I'm not sure it'd get you all the way there if you were starting with an instrument with an even bigger bore and bell/throat like a marching trombone.

But, for example, the thein bass trumpet I have came with a thein german trombone mouthpiece which is pretty close in rim and depth to a 6.5al. And, even using that, it sounds VERY trumpet like -- moreso than the bach bass trumpet does with a 12C (I have never tried one with anything smaller).

[J.c. Sherman]

1) Bloke, I'd love to try your bass trumpet mouthpiece when you make it... whatever the material

2) Not all the instruments have gotten larger; the horns haven't (depending on the city/country you're discussing) and many major orchestras are exploring the smaller trombones and tubas again.

3) My exploration of the bass trumpet did begin on an Olds/Bach/Reynolds marching thing-a-ma-bob. It was fun, but I was under the impression it was good enough, certainly for Stravinsky and other "band" bass trumpet works. And, I'd already made 3 much smaller bass trumpets for happy customers.

Then came my turn to work up The Ring. Boy, did I have a lot to learn! That high Gb will scare the crap out of you when you first face it, let alone a few Ebs, Es and Fs. I made a new instrument for myself with a Chinese valveset (problem-free, so far) and an ancient, tiny French Besson bell. Had to do some tweaks, and added a main slide tuning ring for the wide variety of tuning necessary as you wonder around The Ring. The Ride, you're a horn-ish player, then a trumpet, a trombone... you're part of everything. You’re a

This instrument isn't anymore standardized than the tuba. And so we have to look at the literature and the sonic palate we're a part of, and the history of, in this case, "where the %$@# did this come from?!?".

I have a little essay of my exploration on my website. Bottom line - Bb vs. C isn't going to be a big deal of help, any more than on tuba, or C vs. Bb in the regular trumpets, range wise or transposition wise. I have an easier time with the Bb, and my instrument has an excellent high end. I use the Bach 22D mouthpiece and it's a terrific match.

I'd be interested in the results of an Olds cut to C; I'd think it'd be a little brighter, and you can even consider trimming the bell rim or replacing the flare. Either way, I'd be fascinated with the results!

J.c.S. (who still thinks an alto trombone with a trigger may be the best solution...)

[Lingon]

... and many major orchestras are exploring the smaller trombones and tubas again...

We did Mahler's 2nd tonight. Our trbn section was a tiny bit smaller than the usual bigger is better philosophy with Yamaha 892ZX, Bach 36, Bach 42, Holton TR185. Worked well and sounded quite fresh...

[daveinem]

Very interesting discussion!

I am currently playing a yamaha custom rotary C for the wagnery stuff, with an 11C type mouthpiece, and it blends well with the bones and not so bad with the horns, and somewhat well with the trumpets. I will try and find a 22E or something.

I have a flugabone/marching trombone, and the intonation is god-awful, not to mention stuffy. It seems to me like it's really a cornet type instrument. Am I wrong there?
For Janacek next month I will use a Bach or the orchestra's Holton, because it will lie better. Rheingold was much better last spring with the Yamaha (which I assume is based on an Alex or something). The Holton has great valves and a lovely sound, with only a couple of notes that bug me.

[J.c. Sherman]

I always considered the "English" Baritones as more of a Bass cornet than the flugelbones. YMMV.

J.c.S.

[daveinem]

Indeed they are. But I find the marching trombone distinctly un-trombone sounding, although I don't know the specifics about conical bore...

[Bob Kolada]

They kinda sound like a cross between a French horn and a trombone to me.