4 valve BBb's vs 5 valve CC's

[BMadsen]

New to the forum, relatively new tubist (playing since August), but pro musician in NY. Currently playing an Eb Mira (early 70's, perhaps late 60's), need to switch to BBb or CC for the work I aspire to as a doubler.

I'm confused about why so many top BBb's (Mira's, Hirsbrunners, etc) usually have 4 valves but top CC's have 5 valves? I would assume that any 2 horns of the same model (BBb 186 vs CC 186) would have similar intonation issues, since one is just a bit longer (and everything would be proportionally longer in the valves as well) than the other.

Thanks in advance,

Brad

[PMeuph]

I'm confused about why so many top BBb's (Mira's, Hirsbrunners, etc) usually have 4 valves but top CC's have 5 valves? I would assume that any 2 horns of the same model (BBb 186 vs CC 186) would have similar intonation issues, since one is just a bit longer (and everything would be proportionally longer in the valves as well) than the other.

If you look carefully on the Miraphone webpage, you will realize that most of the BBb (186, 187, 1291) that have CC versions come as both 4 valves or 5 valved horns. I have the strong suspicion that this is a cost saving feature, as it is cheaper to build a horn with one less valve, and might cater to another market.

http://www.miraphone.de/" target="_blank


I'm not sure exactly what you are going for when you mention intonation....

[BMadsen]

I'm referring to whatever intonation quirks a model might have. For instance, I've tried a lot of King trombones, and have found that they all have the same general intonation quirks regardless of whether it's a 2b or 3b or a 5b. I figured that if you take 2 horns that are the same model (for example, a Mira 186), one BBb and one CC, I figured that they probably would have the same issues (I don't know these horns, but for instance if they both played a specific partial out of tune and you need to use an alternate fingering).

I can understand about wanting to attract another market - that makes sense. I was just noticing that there are a lot of 4 valve BBb and not a lot of 5 valve BBb's, and there are a lot more 5 valve CC's available, and I didn't know if this was a physics issue (BBb's played more in tune), a perception issue (CC is considered a "pro" tuba and BBb "amateur") or a financial one - or some combo of them all. Frankly, for me it's about "does it do the job I need it to."

[PMeuph]

I'm referring to whatever intonation quirks a model might have. For instance, I've tried a lot of King trombones, and have found that they all have the same general intonation quirks regardless of whether it's a 2b or 3b or a 5b. I figured that if you take 2 horns that are the same model (for example, a Mira 186), one BBb and one CC, I figured that they probably would have the same issues (I don't know these horns, but for instance if they both played a specific partial out of tune and you need to use an alternate fingering).

I can understand about wanting to attract another market - that makes sense. I was just noticing that there are a lot of 4 valve BBb and not a lot of 5 valve BBb's, and there are a lot more 5 valve CC's available, and I didn't know if this was a physics issue (BBb's played more in tune), a perception issue (CC is considered a "pro" tuba and BBb "amateur") or a financial one - or some combo of them all. Frankly, for me it's about "does it do the job I need it to."

FWIW, I think that a 5th valve is usually added to give extra lower range, and not to correct intonation quirks. The added possibility of alternative fingerings is a benefit, but no the sole raison d'etre.

[imperialbari]

Weight also is an issue. Most band tubists in Central Europe also march their concert instruments. That is why it is possible to find well made BBb, Eb, and even F tubas with only 3 valves.

Klaus

[fairweathertuba]

low F

Right, the BBb tuba has an easily playable and in tune low F with 4 valves, CC will need the extra valve in most cases to make this an easy and reliable note; this also applies to a couple other notes on the way down to pedal CC. BBb tuba's could really use a 5th valve from the low Eb on down to the pedal Bb, but since it's not used as often by pro tuba players not as many are made with a 5th. Some people swear by their 4 valve CC or BBb horns, but really if you are going to be playing down there I feel the 4 valve horn is a poor choice. Of course, YMMV.

[Rick Denney]

The best high-end Bb tubas do come with five valves if you wish. And it wasn't that long ago that high-end C tubas came routinely with four valves (four-valve C tubas from Alexander and Rudolf Meinl, to name two high-end examples from a few decades ago, were common).

A fifth valve on a contrabass was not common when most of the designs were cemented. I think it's very likely that the fifth valve on the CSO York, for example, was intended as a switch valve to convert the instrument from C to Bb, given the relative rarity at that time of piston C tubas, and the likelihood in those days that American players would be more well-versed in Bb than in C fingerings.

I'm not sure it's safe to assume that C tubas and Bb tubas should have the same intonation tendencies. The bugle of a Miraphone 186, for example, is 18 feet long in Bb and 16 feet long in C. But the bell is the same and the valves are the same on both instruments, so the taper has to more quickly expand in the middle third of the C bugle. That changes the intonation tendencies. For a very long time, Bb tubas had better intonation than C tubas that were derived from those same designs, and for a very long time C tubas were derived from Bb designs. It's been recently that C tubas had really good intonation compared to similar quality Bb tubas.

But comparing at similar quality isn't that easy. For reasons of tradition justified by hindsight-based explanations, C tubas have been in common use by those with professional training and Bb by hobbyists. Thus, C tubas have been marketed to pros and pro wannabes, who are, as a class, willing to pay more than tubas used by community-band players. That willingness to pay has driven a higher standard of fit, finish, design, and features, to justify those higher prices. The difference in as-delivered fit and finish between the Conn 5xJ and the King 2341, even though both used many of the same parts, explains this: The Conn had a price point nearly twice that of the King. That higher price point was driven by what C tubas were generally willing to pay. Miraphone Bb and C versions of the same model often have a suggested price that is similar, but the street price is very much different.

The low F is not to be discounted. Low F's occur routinely, low Eb's less routinely, especially in the music played by the bulk of the Bb market. I can certainly get by without a fifth valve on my Holton playing in a community band, and frankly even playing in an orchestra. A four-valve C is a bit more challenging, but there are still those who do it, and even some who prefer it.

Rick "noting a lot of factors related more to tradition and price point than to acoustics, instrument design, and music" Denney

[Aardvark892]

It may sound ridiculous, but I wish 5th valve was an alternate fingering for 2/3. You'd only ever have to use one valve, except for 2/4 as an alternate to 1/2/3 (at least with BB flat horns). Wishful thinking...

Also, as Rick Denny above pointed out, you can find BB flat horns with a fifth valve. As a matter of fact, Tuba Exchange sells a nice JinBao 5/4 horn with four pistons and a rotor fifth valve... I believe it's supposed to be similar to older American Tubas, and it's under 4 grand.

http://tubaexchange.com/product-detail. ... BBb%20Tuba" target="_blank

And here's a CC that similar:

http://tubaexchange.com/product-detail. ... 0TE-1295CL" target="_blank

I hope it's not inappropriate to link to horns for sale in this forum. If so, I'll delete those links.

[Trevor Bjorklund]

As a matter of fact, my (older) Miraphone 188 has just that - a 5th valve that drops the pitch a major third. It is extremely handy for playing band music in keys with lots of flats, especially on fast passages. Naturally, it's a CC tuba, not a BBb...

[BMadsen]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all of the great information. It's been really helpful as I figure out what tuba I should consider.

I'm currently playing a late 60's/early 70's Mira Eb. I had a lesson with a tubist here in NY, and he was impressed by my development since I started playing. However, I was informed that if I intend to sub on Broadway shows, the sound concept is contrabass rather than bass. I was told Bb/C doesn't matter, just as long as it is able to play in-tune (with slide-pulling if needed) throughout it's entire range.

Knowing what I know, I will definitely need a 5th valve, no matter what horn I get, to make sure that whatever is called for, I can play it. Now I am just wishing that I had a budget of more than $3000 total, after purchase/time to adjust to new horn and fingerings/sale of current horn.

Any thoughts on 5 valve horns for under $3k? I'm seriously interested in Dillon's Mira 186 copy (I know it's the Jin Bao, but since I live close to them I like that they will be there for service if any issues arise), but I'm also curious about that TE-1295. Any thoughts on either of them as an all-around tuba?

[eupher61]

For most show work, if you have a good BBb with a solid low F, you won't need a 5th valve. Remember, also, that you will almost always be mic'ed.
Size can also be a consideration. Certainly in many pits a 5/4 horn is not going to work well, esp. if it's a double book.
I'm surprised at the contrabass vs bass comment; past conversations with show players (and the crews of shows I've played) have always said something a bit brighter is better, because it's easier to mix.

[tbn.al]

The 184 BBb is probably the ideal rotary doubler/pit/quintet horn in my opinion. They can be had used within your budget. If you desire a BBb piston horn look at a used Conn 5J or an Olds O-99.

[MartyNeilan]

I am going out on a limb here, but I am going to say what many people are probably thinking:
The NYC market is one of the most competitive tuba job markets in the world, and filled with many very very (very) good players. People who have graduated from Juilliard, Manhattan, Mannes, and plenty of other great schools who have studied under some of the world's greatest teachers and own $xx,xxx worth of instruments.
If you are having to post these kinds of questions on a public forum, do you think you are ready to be earning a living playing the tuba in NYC?

Marty "Not trying to offend, only trying to broaden the discussion"

[bort]

I am going out on a limb here, but I am going to say what many people are probably thinking:
The NYC market is one of the most competitive tuba job markets in the world, and filled with many very very (very) good players. People who have graduated from Juilliard, Manhattan, Mannes, and plenty of other great schools who have studied under some of the world's greatest teachers and own $xx,xxx worth of instruments.
If you are having to post these kinds of questions on a public forum, do you think you are ready to be earning a living playing the tuba in NYC?

Marty "Not trying to offend, only trying to broaden the discussion"

Yes, but....he's already said he's a pro in the city. Making a living isn't the question, nor does he sound like he wants it to all come from playing tuba. Just opening more opportunities.

I have no evidence to back it up, but I think a pro musician (trombone, bass, ...?) that can dabble in tuba when needed is far better equipped to make a living than a tuba player who can dabble in trombone, bass, etc.

To the OP... key doesn't usually matter, whatever is easiest for you. If you're a trombone player, BBb might make more sense and be easier to keep straight. If you're a bass player, then CC would be a little easier. Also, it can depend what shows you are playing. For example, unless you have a BBb with a killer pedal C (very unlikely), you will need a CC for Lion King.

[J.c. Sherman]

If you're going to be a pit doubler, you need and instrument with an excellent "pedal" C. On a CC, it's a pedal, no problem. On a BBb, you'll need something with a long throw somewhere. A YBB-641 has a long 1 & 4 that can be pulled at the same time; the Miraphone 186 is a nice BBb complement to your Eb, and the 3rd valve can pull out for C. But you need that note for Lion King. Period.

As for 5 valves, I've known players who played 4 valves on their CC for most of their careers. It's not 'necessar', but Bloke's right - you better find a damn solid low D. Low Db. False tone if you ever see it. Make sure you've got D.

I'd be reticent to care whether I have a 5th on a BBb. I really think it's just extra mass and resistance which isn't necessary. I have a 4v 184 CC, and I love playing it for quintet, but a 5th would not hurt it. But for a main contra, I would require a 5th on my CC.

J.c.S.
Kalison DS CC
Yamaha YBB-641 custom
Miraphone 184-4U CC
Yamaha YFB-621
Miraphone 183

[toobagrowl]

Depends on the individual instrument. Usually a good 4v BBb is fine for serious work, but I find that CC tubas almost need that 5th valve for serious work. There are, of course, exceptions. But it really does come down to the occurrence of low F in tuba music. 'Pedal' CC (played 1+2 as a ghost/false tone) comes out well on a good BBb, and low/'pedal' DD blurts out great with 2+3+4.

[PaulTkachenko]

I used to have a B flat 5 valved miraphone, with a major third 5th valve.

It was a good 5th valve idea. It was the rest of the horn that sucked, tuning-wise.

[JCalkin]

Just curious, but would a big EEb not be OK for pit work? (I don't regularly play in pit orchestras, so I'm ignorant on this)

I would think that since the OP is already familiar with EEb tuba, something like a Willson or MW 2141 would be a good fit. Pedal CC on an eefer uses similar lengths of tuba to pedal CC on a CC horn, right? It might be a bit brighter in sound but a big E-flat can be quite "contrabassy" and it would be lighter and take up far less room in the pit.

[J.c. Sherman]

Just curious, but would a big EEb not be OK for pit work? (I don't regularly play in pit orchestras, so I'm ignorant on this)

I would think that since the OP is already familiar with EEb tuba, something like a Willson or MW 2141 would be a good fit. Pedal CC on an eefer uses similar lengths of tuba to pedal CC on a CC horn, right? It might be a bit brighter in sound but a big E-flat can be quite "contrabassy" and it would be lighter and take up far less room in the pit.

For the size of those ensembles and the types of music and doubling required, I think a Besson 98X Eb would be the best option.

[BMadsen]

Just curious, but would a big EEb not be OK for pit work? (I don't regularly play in pit orchestras, so I'm ignorant on this)

I would think that since the OP is already familiar with EEb tuba, something like a Willson or MW 2141 would be a good fit. Pedal CC on an eefer uses similar lengths of tuba to pedal CC on a CC horn, right? It might be a bit brighter in sound but a big E-flat can be quite "contrabassy" and it would be lighter and take up far less room in the pit.

For the size of those ensembles and the types of music and doubling required, I think a Besson 98X Eb would be the best option.

I was told that the sound is contrabass. A friend of mine who subbed on Broadway on a book with tuba recently was not called back because he didn't have the right sound. He plays, if I'm not mistaken, a York Monster Eb. As I was told, the feedback from the MD was too bright and light for the pit.

From everything I've read here, it looks like CC is the best bet for me.