Intonation-fingering vs. speed of passage

[imperialbari]

I have been corrected about the telling of the DC Marine Band story. The euph player was confronted by a back row clarinet player about the fingering shortcut leading to a bad note. Goes to say that even back row players in that band take responsibility for the overall musical quality.

As I hinted about up- & downwards leading notes, intonation is not an absolute, but depends on the actual musical environment including which direction and affinity each given note should express, where the direction is a function of the affinity (which some call the local/relative dominant function).

Handling such matters takes the ability to analyze the music on the fly. If one has not divine ears, this takes some theoretical training, which then has to be applied via scale playing. Which in turn takes discipline bordering on masochism. I have used inspiration from jazz players, who most often are very well versed in scales and tonalities, to develop a scale training system that cuts down to the central of each scale variant on each pitch. C major has one tongued and one legato version in the midrange plus the same two versions in the upper and in the lower range respectively (not repetitive Arban-type patterns over and over again). Same goes for the 11 other notes. And for the Lydian, the Locrian, the Phrygian, the 3 minors, the Dorian, and the Mixolydian modes, plus the Lydian dominant and the 8-note scales. All directed specifically towards either treble clef readers like in brass bands or towards bass clef readers in Bb, F, Eb, CC, or BBb.

All downloadable for free from my Yahoo based project via the index:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... 0%20Index/

Currently I work on material for church orchestras, but I hope at some point of time to revise my scale system to be more easily useable for class, section, or ensemble training across all pitches. As of now it is more directed towards individual training.

Klaus

[Elbee]

Klaus is that You in the nightshirt?

[imperialbari]

On the door.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I took one glance, announced boldly to the section, "G melodic minor descending," and proceeded to nail it in one take on the concert tape.

That makes no sense. Melodic minor descending is natural minor. Did any of your section mates roll their eyes?

[PMeuph]

I took one glance, announced boldly to the section, "G melodic minor descending," and proceeded to nail it in one take on the concert tape.

That makes no sense. Melodic minor descending is natural minor. Did any of your section mates roll their eyes?

Your right Todd, G minor melodic descending is the natural minor, that is what is taught in schools. But, I think we probably all know that composers use modes that are not taught in school, or use them in ways that classroom usage wouldn't permit.

How would you name: g f# e d c Bb a g ?

[PhilGreen]

This reminds me of band workshop I went to tutored by players from the famous Black Dyke Mills Bands 20 years ago. We were working on a test piece that had a very tricky demi-semi quaver fast run with lots of accidentals. Before a session I was busy pencilling in the accidentals and alternative fingering to try to get as best as I could when the Black Dyke bass player came in and saw what I was doing. He said to my surprise "don't bother doing that! It passes far too fast for anyone to hear individual notes - just do like we do, start and finish on right notes, and waggle your fingers in the middle!"

I was doing bits and bobs with Dyke 20 or so years ago. I'm pretty sure that was a little tongue in cheek and said to make you feel better. There's no way that The Major, Kingy or Jim would have accepted that. There are plenty of tricks that bass sections use but that's a bit too simple methinks at that level Plus Phil G, or Geoff H would have needed to.

[Wyvern]

I'm pretty sure that was a little tongue in cheek and said to make you feel better.

I was amazed by the statement, but it did sound like said in all seriousness at the time. I can't see why it should have been said "to make you feel better" as we had only had one 'run-through' of the piece (ON ALDERLEY EDGE by Peter Graham if I remember correctly) at that stage. Not like I was struggling and getting frustrated.

[iiipopes]

I took one glance, announced boldly to the section, "G melodic minor descending," and proceeded to nail it in one take on the concert tape.

That makes no sense. Melodic minor descending is natural minor. Did any of your section mates roll their eyes?

It was in G minor, and had the raised 6 & 7 at various places earlier in the section for the ascending, before this penultimate run to the cadential low G. Therefore, I said what I said instead of natural minor to contrast. They still didn't get it.

[gwwilk]

We're talking bananas, grapes, apples, and oranges here--a real fruit basket. The variables include tuba, player(s), tempo AND pitch. Mud begins for me (a BBb player) on 16th notes faster than 120 bpm below the 2nd partial BBb and reigns from the F below that. (Bear with me, please, since I don't have any bona fides in this area.) For me on my BBb tubas when I see a 32nd & 64th note slurred run from a sustained C below the staff up to C in the staff at 100-120 bpm and the run occupies the space of an 8th note, I'm gonna waggle it up because my valves don't work that fast. I don't remember the name of the piece we played in Community Concert Band recently where this occurred, but the composer surely didn't expect to be able to hear a tuba section produce each individual note at that tempo, did they? What they got was a solid C at each end with a rapid transition between them...an 'effect'. Coming up for our next CCB concert is Jay Babcock's transcription of John Williams' 'The Cowboys, Overture'. In the usual Williams fashion there are articulated and slurred 16th notes below the 2nd partial BBb at 'Vigoroso' tempo. It remains to be seen how cleanly our tuba section will render these passages, but we're working on them.

[acjcf2]

You're right Phil, since not having any music therory in my past and only studying and practicing between the 4th grade to the 11th grade, and rejoining 15 months ago, I confess I have no earthly clue what Klaus and some of the others were talking about. Sorry Klaus!

I'll figure a way to get from the first to the last note in a speed run with some semblance of musicallity and fake the rest. God help me. "Perfect practice makes a perfect performance."

Interesting discussion though.

Jim

"Happy Easter!"

[Todd S. Malicoate]

How would you name: g f# e d c Bb a g ?

The "jazz minor" scale or "major flat 3."

[termite]

PMeuph wrote:
How would you name: g f# e d c Bb a g ?

I'd call it the melodic minor (ascending form) used descending.

It doesn't matter what you call it so long as you recognise it as a minor scale with a raised sixth and seventh, then you can play and pitch it without having to think too much.

Gerard

[iiipopes]

How would you name: g f# e d c Bb a g ?

In traditional Western 1600-1900 diatonic music theory: wrong.

[Bob Kolada]

You guys and your scales and theory is law jazz....

[GC]

You can used the raised (ascending) melodic minor form going in either direction if the underlying harmony calls for it. Likewise the descending form depends on the most recent chord. Thinking in G minor, would you want an F in a descending passage over a D7 chord (D-F#-A-C) in anything other than jazz?

[PMeuph]

How would you name: g f# e d c Bb a g ?

In traditional Western 1600-1900 diatonic music theory: wrong.

I think "wrong" is the wrong word. .... Unusual is probably more suited.

I agree with what GC said, and, extending that with an example we all probably know: Do you recall the last three pitches of the 1st Mvt. of Galliard's 5h Sonata?

Here's the link:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/35298" target="_blank

Over a dominant harmony (preceded by a cadential 6/4) the three pitches heard are d -c#- b. Something that "shouldn't" happen in minor. Same thing happens in measure 3 of movement 2. This time extending down to the a. Indeed in that measure the is a descent that includes the flat 3 and the raised 6 and 7.

Scales are abstractions designed for practice and learning, they are not the be all end all elements of music, the music is.


The following example is something that is unusual for the time period. Since we're on the topic of intonation, how about intonation and difficult sonorities? (Chord doesn't seem quite appropriate in my mind) What would be the best way to tune the opening chord of the following excerpt?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I was never arguing that the use of the ascending melodic minor in a descending scale pattern is "wrong" or even "unusual."

I was simply pointing out that if one of my section mates told me to play a g melodic minor scale descending I wouldn't play F# or E. Then I would think, "Man, that was weird. Why not just tell me to play a g minor scale?"

[PMeuph]

I was never arguing that the use of the ascending melodic minor in a descending scale pattern is "wrong" or even "unusual."

My reply wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at iiipopes.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

My reply wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at iiipopes.

Nor was mine aimed at you but rather at the discussion in general.