24AW - in praise of

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PhilGreen
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PhilGreen »

bloke wrote:
PhilGreen wrote:Why don't you all use proper, compensating tubas......? :mrgreen:
I know you were (sort-of) kidding, but I'll answer that one.

- Many of the BBb's over here (due to very heavy school use over several decades) are old and leaky, which makes people think they are "stuffy". Another thing that makes people believe they are "stuffy" is that on quite a few of these - BOTH the BBb's and Eb's (and you should check yours...) - the valve stems are too short for (with even the thinnest bumper washer under the button) the ports to be able to properly line up on the down-strokes of the pistons.

Having been able to play BOTH BBb's and Eb's that are [1] NOT leaky and which [2] sport enhanced-length valve stems, both the BBb's and Eb's are nice tubas. As Roger Bobo has hinted in his writings, the 19" bell Eb sounds (vs. the original 15" bell) a bit too "pretty" and is somewhat mono-sonorous. That doesn't keep me from LIKING it, though.
I liked mine too - both the EEb and BBb Sovs. However I do know what you mean, having helped out some brass bands on their Bessons in the last 12 months. Personally, I joined the Rotary club about this time last year and haven't looked back (except for when I need to get a high E natural above the stave -jeez, I miss that note!)
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by pwhitaker »

I often use a really old (1920's) custom made H.N.White mouthpiece which is a 24AW on steroids. The inner rim is about 36 mm., the cup is AAA deep - almost 2 inches, the backbore is about 9.5 mm and this mouthpiece was cut from a piece of 2.25" brass stock. The rim is very rounded and about 11 mm wide. I've had this mouthpiece for abour 35 years now and have had 5 copies with slight modificatios made in the interim - brass, stainless and titanium. This is my go to mouthpiece, along with its siblings. I've played almost every commercial mouthpiece there is and always wind up back with this group. I like the blokepieces, the Warren Deck, the Bayamo and other GW and Hauser mpc's. I just can't get really comfortable with these "smaller" mpc's (< 34.5 mm).

I have used these mpc's on all of my BB's and Eb's over the years. The only drawback is that the treble clef is a bit dicey with these pieces, but since I play primarily traditional jazz it's not a problem. Since I've switched exclusively to old 6/4 recording bell 3 valve BB's these mpc's are ideal for my style of playing and let me produce the tuba sound I have in my head.

FWIW.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by Wyvern »

PhilGreen wrote: Personally, I joined the Rotary club about this time last year and haven't looked back (except for when I need to get a high E natural above the stave -jeez, I miss that note!)
You are playing a Melton 2040/5? That was always the troublesome note for me too and one reason I eventually sold what was otherwise a great tuba.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by Wyvern »

On the 24AW, I used one for a number of years and it does provide a lovely rich tone and some of the best playing I have ever heard live has been on such a mouthpiece.

What I don't now like quite so much about the 24AW is the tone is slightly woolly compared to other mouthpieces and it does seem small to me now. With the EEb I currently prefer the Denis Wick Heritage 2XL which has similar wide rounded rim but is slightly larger and gives good definition. Phil if you have not tried, worth check out.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by sousaphone68 »

Neptune wrote:
What I don't now like quite so much about the 24AW is the tone is slightly woolly compared to other mouthpieces and it does seem small to me now. With the EEb I currently prefer the Denis Wick Heritage 2XL which has similar wide rounded rim but is slightly larger and gives good definition. Phil if you have not tried, worth check out.
I would agree with the woolly comment I tried one for a day and did not like the amount of extra effort and concentration required to achieve the articulation and tone that I wanted and was used to getting from my other mouthpiece.
I use a DW 1l heritage with my Eb having moved over the years as I grew and my instruments changed from a DW 5 to a DW 3 to DW 2 for my New Standard and DW1L for my Sousaphone and clone.
I am going to borrow a 24AW to see if I can get to grips with it.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by bilmac »

Hmmmmmmmmm. Have been watching this one for a few days. I've been playing for 40 plus years now on compensating instruments mostly but not always. When I started ,Fletcher was the Man and everybody seemed to copy what he did so you got yourself a VB 24 AW and off you went. So did I.I made a really good sound on it both in bands and orchestra but never felt entirely confident playing it, it had a nasty bad habit of catching you out when you least expected it. Probably due to my deficiencies as a player as much as anything but it did knock what was otherwise a fairly confident/competent player.I wrote to Fletcher about this and to his great credit not knowing me or anything about me, he took the time to write me back to say he had something of a love /hate relationship with it himself . I still have that letter as a treasured possession.I perservered but did try things along the way like Wicks(not very comfortable and bland) Schilke(blow the house down but sounds like a power tool when pushed)Perantucci( 84,very good but hard work in a band when you've got to play all night and it 's never off your face)Breslmair(liked that a lot)JK(probably what I'm drifting towards at present)and lastly a Floyd Cooley special which is like an old Conn Helleburg. It's very good but my tuba playing son has purloined it. My slight criticism is that it is slightly lean in sound but it is crisp and clear.The point is that they are all much easier to play. I find I don't have to think about note preparation, production etc.at all or very little, I just blow and it all comes out just fine.( By the way, mouthpiece collecting for tuba players isn't cheap.)
I used to wonder if face shape had something to do with it. I have a broad flat face with even dentition and plenty of lip tissue . My tuba playing son is just the same. He won't play the 24AW at all.Would somebody like to pick up on this face shape and tuba players point?
I have drifted backwards and forwards from the 24AW but always seem to end up where I started.
Now , here's the trap. None of the other mouthpieces make that big comfortable sound that integrates so well in a brass band as the 24AW when stuck on a compensator EE flat. The conjunction of the two is undeniably effective.Other mouthpieces sound good but not as good. As long as we are faced with compensating instruments as part of our set up in British brass bands we might be stuck .
I have played Rotary and non british instruments in brass bands but none of them had the blend.
Outside of bands I have done quite a lot of orchestral work but not much recently. I have a different sound in my head for that and readily use a different mouthpiece(s) for that.Not the 24 AW which can be tricky after having sat out for ten minutes and then having to play something pp in the middle register.
So perhaps the trade off is to sacrifice some of the voluptious sound for manoeuvrability and use the JK 5A. Not sure.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by peter birch »

I am sure that one day someone will produce a mouthpiece that will cause Bach, Wick, Perantucci, G&W, mike Finn and everyone else to say "that it folks, this beats everything we have ever done, lets pack up!". Until then we are left with a range of very good mouthpieces from which we have to choose the one (or two or several depending on resources) that suits us best. Now, if that is a VB24AW, or a Denis Wick 3, or one of Blokes mouthpieces, what of it?
Based on my 40 or so years of playing, the 24AW is superior to the Denis Wicks playing the compensated EEbs and BBbs that I have played. Now I am nothing special, so my experience is just that - my experience, no less or more valid or right than anyone else's. I would recommend the 24AW, but I am not offended if someone ignores me. Yes it is harder work to play with, and if you had to make some physical and mental effort to play beautifully with one, then I would have say "man up and make that effort" it is worth it.
the 24 shaped mouthpiece does have its challenges, if you over blow it sounds truly awful (even more so than the Denis Wicks), but I have never burned my embouchure out playing on one, and it would appear that the DW XL mouthpieces are incorporating some of the features of the 24AW in their design.
there is a fairly new kid on the block over in the Alliance brand from Roger Webster, with input form James Gourlay for the tuba mouthpieces. They have taken over from the Wicks as the supplied mouthpiece for Besson instruments and have been well received and reviewed, I have just got hold of a Les Neish signature from Alliance and I'm having some fun with it, it has a good focussed, ringing high range, it is a bit more difficult below a bottom F but I have the 24 for when I need that range.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PhilGreen »

bloke wrote:The UK awaits a modern-day St. Patrick to come and drive all of the 24AW's out of the band halls... :lol:
Won 't be me - I can't stand the black stuff!
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by Wyvern »

bloke wrote:The UK awaits a modern-day St. Patrick to come and drive all of the 24AW's out of the band halls... :lol:
It amuses me that the Americans seem to have so little regard for this classic American mouthpiece - while over the pond in England it is the most popular tuba mouthpiece and not just in band rooms, but music conservatoire's, and concert halls too... :roll:
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by sousaphone68 »

bloke wrote:The UK awaits a modern-day St. Patrick to come and drive all of the 24AW's out of the band halls... :lol:
You need a modern St George to slay your 24aw dragon for England
St David for Wales and St Andrew for Scotland and Ireland can keep St Patrick.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by peter birch »

Neptune wrote:
bloke wrote:The UK awaits a modern-day St. Patrick to come and drive all of the 24AW's out of the band halls... :lol:
It amuses me that the Americans seem to have so little regard for this classic American mouthpiece - while over the pond in England it is the most popular tuba mouthpiece and not just in band rooms, but music conservatoire's, and concert halls too... :roll:

Maybe the Americans don't like it because we do... :wink:
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by fairweathertuba »

It seems as if the 24AW has filled a specific niche in the tuba playing world, at least the UK world that is.

Like many a young lad, my first mp was a 24aw that I chucked out into the woods behind my parents house after a year or so of agony with it.

However I can understand the need for a mp that doesn't wear the chops out with continuous playing, which is the main reason I use a smallish feeling Blessing 18. Feels a lot smaller than the Bach 18, also it has a wider more comfortable rim than the Bach, but not crazy wide and fat like a 24aw.

Funny thing is after 35 years of not having a 24AW I'd kind of like to try one again. This very thread is making want to try one!

One more thing, I remember some bloke (not "bloke", but some bloke) possibly a bloke from the UK who had a spreadsheet with the specifications listed for quite a variety of mp's. Anyone have a link for that webpage with the spreadsheet?
Last edited by fairweathertuba on Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PMeuph »

Tubajason wrote:............The father of the tuba Harvey Philips........

How is Harvey Philips the "father of the tuba?" .... :? :? :?


I always though it was Bell who had that title....
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by PMeuph »

bloke wrote:This is the ONLY man who could POSSIBLY father a tuba... :|

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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by Art Hovey »

Harvey Philips, there is a great story about how when he first started out as a professional he forgot his mouthpiece for a gig at a high school. The story goes he went to the band director and he handed Harvey a 24 aw. Harvey went on to play the show and all went well. Ever since then Harvey always used a 24 aw because, in his words, he would always be able to find one when needed in any high school across America.
I am afraid you are mistaken about that. It was a Conn mouthpiece that Harvey borrowed after breaking his special bakelite mpc, and it was a Conn that he used for the rest of his career because he knew he could find one in every high school. Look at any photo of Harvey playing.

He told me that story himself, after trying one of my plastic mouthpieces.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by modelerdc »

Harvey settled on the Conn 2, a nice mouthpiece close in size and characteristics to the Helleberg 7B. He said one reason for chosing this mouthpiece is that he could find one anywhere should his get lost. I have one, typical flat Conn rim with a well defined inner edge, funnel style cup, a good mpc for those who don't require a really big one.
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by fairweathertuba »

So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's? And Chuck Norris, what does he use?
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by tuba-tobias »

fairweathertuba wrote:And Chuck Norris, what does he use?
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by Wyvern »

fairweathertuba wrote:So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's?
A lot do and probably the majority of orchestral pros too. In fact I would go so far as to say the 24AW almost defines the British tuba sound
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Re: 24AW - in praise of

Post by MikeW »

Neptune wrote:
fairweathertuba wrote:So, the guys in the top brass bands really use 24AW's?
A lot do and probably the majority of orchestral pros too. In fact I would go so far as to say the 24AW almost defines the British tuba sound
That would explain why instrument shops in ex-pat British enclaves stock the Vincent Bach 24AW with the old B&H/Besson small European shank (it has a B stamped on the shank): When I needed a mouthpiece in a hurry, they pulled one right off the shelf - shame really, I was looking for a small Denis Wick (4 or 5).

Oh well, any port in a storm, but with hindsight, the 24AW is a tad over-powered for a Besson 2-20 three-banger 2/4 size Eb (long story short: I was stranded away from home at the time, and short of both tuba and cash). Now the dust has settled, it works fairly well on my Imperial Eb, but I seem to be getting a more pleasing sound from a DW3.
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