inconsistant conductors

[fairweathertuba]

Ooops forgot about the OP.

Yeah, for the most part follow the concertmaster, the first trombone or trumpet, or maybe the bass section leader, whoever is most important at the time. You actually have to watch these people imo or you will come in late, very late! Also, once a section begins you must listen carefully!

I really hope some more professional toobists chime in on this.

[BAtlas]

So How does everyone handle a conductor that has an inconsistant beat pattern?

Great question!

Become super uber dupper aware and decide to follow lead or get out of the way.

I think this is the most accurate statement for a wide array of different ensembles. Follow, lead, or get out of the way. If you are new to a group, leading is probably not a great idea.

[tclements]

STOP WATCHING!!!

[Ace]

STOP WATCHING!!!

Now, now, Tony------------I'd venture that you always watched this conductor. You worked for him for quite a number of years. I did Trumpet II in Berkeley Opera's Magic Flute with George as the conductor. He is a fine musician and great conductor whose baton had better be watched lest he roast you alive. Fear of his wrath keeps musicians on their toes.

http://www.symphonysiliconvalley.org/mu ... 6&MusID=86" target="_blank

Ace

[TubaRay]

I remember a conductor in one of the Municipal Bands I have played with, who used to frequently yell at the tubas for dragging the tempo on marches.

I got sick of it and leaned up to the principal horn and told him "From now on, we don't watch during marches. We'll look for the first downbeat, but after that, we'll just put our heads down and keep the time."

The conductor's reaction to seeing nothing but the tops of our heads? "Tubas, that was PERFECT. Thanks for finally keeping with me! Do it like that every time!"

Once upon a time, the "Resident Genius" and I had a VERY similar experience. This came about after we had studiously followed his beat, all the time.

[Chadtuba]

As I'm currently in grad school studying conducting I find this thread very interesting, informative, and educational. I hope that I don't become one of "those" conductors but am rather one that you would be willing to watch. Please keep this thread going as I still have a lot to learn.

[MikeW]

Some decades ago when I was second horn in an undistinguished British brass band, one of our members was a student at the Guildhall school of music (strings for a living, brass band and beer as a hobby). He was advised by one of his profs not to conduct our band, because he was getting into the habit of giving too much explicit help and direction; This would be deeply resented by pro musicians, which could be a CLM (this was probably good advice: when last heard from, he had the first cello seat in quite a decent orchestra).

Later, West of the Atlantic, during a weekend camp for community bands, the conductor tore a flamboyant and richly ornamented strip off of a tuba for mis-timing an entry. He had forgotten where he was, and was enraged that he couldn't extract a professional level of performance from a bungling incompetent; Actually I was flattered that he confused me with someone who would be embarassed by a mistake like that, but unfortunately that was/is about my usual level.

I guess the pattern I may be seeing is that when a capable conductor is unclear, he may be paying you the complement of assuming that you don't need his help, possibly because he's forgotten what it felt like to need that kind of help. The other kind of conductor we just live with.

Also: some replies in this thread suggest relying on the drummer or the principal tuba. I used to follow this advice and stay with the drummer, until one day he confessed that he always knew he could trust the tuba (me). I guess the moral is that you should listen to what's going on around you and stay with the majority of the ensemble (except community-band trumpets of course - higher,louder,faster, and ALWAYS half a beat ahead)

[Steve Marcus]

While subbing in a regional pro orchestra, I heard several of the solo entrances (not the tuba!) in a performance of Russian Easter Overture missed because the world-renowned guest conductor, who sat during the entire performance (significant or not), would simply not provide any clear cues. From the first missed entrance, other players were, in effect, losing confidence as the performance went along.

In contrast, one of the other pieces on the program, Prokofiev Piano Concerto No.2, went extremely well. This was because the guest soloist, Yuja Wang, was brilliant. Regardless of what was happening (or not happening) on the podium, she charged away with such energy, drive, and musicianship that the orchestra shared that confidence (BTW, there are a couple of nice exposed tuba lines in that piece).

When the orchestra was polled later for their reactions to this guest conductor, the results were clear that he would not be invited back.

[sloan]

Could bloke suggest a way to handle this particular inconsistency?

Most of the low instruments (brass and woodwind alike) have 16 bars of the same note - 4 to the bar. Nothing could be simpler.

There is a vocalist.

The conductor ignores the ensemble and "conducts" along with the vocalist - with mild to extreme changes in tempo as the passage proceeds. (note: not rubato - CHANGES in tempo on a bar-by-bar basis...different on every run through).

The LAST bar consists of a long held note by the vocalist, with a 16th note pickup into the next measure.
The low guys continue on with their 4-to-the-bar repeated note through this measure.

The conductor gives the downbeat (the start of the held note by the vocalist)....holds both hands over his head, motionless, while the vocalist impresses everyone with the length and purity of the note...and then (at a completely unpredictable time in the future) conducts the 16th note pickup.

Where should the low guys place their 4 quarter notes in this measure?

In particular - where do you put the SECOND beat in the measure? (upon questioning, the conductor instructs: equally space the 4 notes).

[TubaRay]

My question, Ken: Does it really matter? All bets are off when accompanying a vocalist.

[sloan]

My question, Ken: Does it really matter? All bets are off when accompanying a vocalist.

It matters when there are 10 players all trying to guess where to put those 4 notes. It's better for the audience to hear 4 notes than 40...

[sloan]

If the conductor doesn't fix it in the rehearsal, it probably won't get fixed. Regardless of whether hobbyist or hired, the pay is the same whether the passage works or it doesn't.

I don't think he noticed...or cared. pity.

[tclements]

A few thoughts for your enjoyment:

http://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2010/03/co ... -blog.html" target="_blank

[Lingon]

A few thoughts for your enjoyment:

http://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2010/03/co ... -blog.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Thanks Tony, such great stories and so much better because that's the real life for orchestra players. So much fun to appreciate very often.

[Mark]

A couple of years ago, I was playing for a pretty well known conductor. In the symphony we were playing there was a soloistic tuba passage that starts where the time signature changes to slower 6/8 from a preceding tempo that was a very fast 2/4. The tempo was such that It could be conducted in a slow two or in six. The conductor was having a hard time deciding which he wanted and I never knew which he was going to give me. The conductor became frusted with his own indecision and at one point told me that I knew the tempo and that I should not watch him.

[ghmerrill]

The conductor ignores the ensemble and "conducts" along with the vocalist - with mild to extreme changes in tempo as the passage proceeds. (note: not rubato - CHANGES in tempo on a bar-by-bar basis...different on every run through).
... etc. ...

I find myself in a similar situation now, on at least a semi-regular basis -- but absent the actual vocalist. Thinking back over the number of groups I've played in, it seems to me that this sort of "inconsistent conducting" is often (though not always) exhibited by conductors who conduct vocal music rather than (or at least significantly more often than) instrumental music. I don't know why this should be the case, and I certainly have seen highly competent conductors of vocal music. But there does seem to be something "choir-like" about a lot of the sloppy conducting I see in community bands and other amateur organizations. The conductor seems to get into a kind of spaced-out lyrical groove (sometimes just waving the baton -- if he or she is even using one -- in circles to "indicate" the beat) where some sort of odd "expression" appears to crowd out intelligible clues to the ensemble. When this sort of thing results in every run-through being sloppily different and errors not being corrected, the conductor of course isn't really conducting at all, but rather following something else that's going on (perhaps in the ensemble; perhaps in his or her mind).

[Roger Lewis]

A while back I performed Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances with an incredible orchestra and a very mediocre conductor. We got to the last part of the last movement where there is a big brass entrance, off the beat with a hemiola. The MORON just speard his arms wide and tilted his head back, giving nothing for anyone to go on and it was a cluster F&^% for about two measures. We had never seen anything like his "performance conducting" during any of the rehearsals. If he had come near me after the performance ..........

Never trust an idiot in an orchestra that has something that doesn't make a noise.