American sound vs german sound

[Uncle Buck]

"an imaginary sound" vs. "an imaginary sound"

bloke "I would like to hear someone - someone who believes these are actually 'schools' which are 'definable' - demonstrate these two different supposed types of sounds. My guess would be that they would (depending on which supposed type of sound they believe that they 'like') demonstrate one way with a 'nice' sound and the other with an 'ugly' sound - again, depending on which one they had decided that they like."

I'm not going to try to attach labels to these examples, but when I was in high school, I wore out the two tuba solo recordings (vinyl, btw) I had. One was Roger Bobo and the other was Harvey Phillips.

I learned a ton from listening to both (and fortunately had a great private teacher who left pencil bruises on my arm if I tried to just "copy" them without understanding what I was doing). There is no question the two of them had very different sound concepts for solo playing. I don't think the differences in that case are imaginary.

Sure, for the most part, posts on this board quibble over differences that are mostly imaginary. But some real differences exist.

[pwhitaker]

FWIW ... I have recordings from the past 5 years of our trad jazz group's concerts. My tubas on these CD's in chronological order are 1291, 5/4 Rudi, 186 and 6/4 Holton - all BB's since I'm a ham and egger. The 1291 and 186 sound a little lighter in comparson to the Rudi and the Holton. I submit that the the Rudi and the Holton are canonical examples of the German and American tuba respectively. I used the same mouthpiece and if I didn't know from the dates on the recordings I would be hard pressed to differentiate between the Rudi and the Holton even though the Rudi was a 4 valve rotary and the Holton a 3 valve bell front horn.

[THE TUBA]

There are two kinds of tuba tones: The Good Kind and the Bad Kind. I prefer the Good Kind.


In all seriousness, I would be interested to see a scientific study or a dissertation on the acoustical properties of various tubas used by various tubists around the world. Something akin to Rick Denney's work, but on a much larger scale. Of course, this kind of study would be much more interesting to tuba nerds that like to speculate about subjective criteria on the internet than useful to the people that play tuba for the primary source of their income.

[eupher61]

The guy on youtube blatting away on an F tuba in a dancing polka band with cameltoe liederhosen is playing with a "German sound".

Make that "lederhosen." Lederhosen are leather pants. Liederhosen would be song pants. I happen to own a nice pair of lederhosen. It would require vast amounts of cash to get me to wear liederhosen.

When my lederhosen become liederhosen, people usually move away from me very quickly.

[Kevin Hendrick]

The guy on youtube blatting away on an F tuba in a dancing polka band with cameltoe liederhosen is playing with a "German sound".

Make that "lederhosen." Lederhosen are leather pants. Liederhosen would be song pants. I happen to own a nice pair of lederhosen. It would require vast amounts of cash to get me to wear liederhosen.

When my lederhosen become liederhosen, people usually move away from me very quickly.

+1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6dm9rN6oTs

[Uncle Buck]

I'm not going to try to attach labels to these examples, but when I was in high school, I wore out the two tuba solo recordings (vinyl, btw) I had. One was Roger Bobo and the other was Harvey Phillips.

I learned a ton from listening to both (and fortunately had a great private teacher who left pencil bruises on my arm if I tried to just "copy" them without understanding what I was doing). There is no question the two of them had very different sound concepts for solo playing. I don't think the differences in that case are imaginary.

Sure, for the most part, posts on this board quibble over differences that are mostly imaginary. But some real differences exist.

...and both are Americans...and both played small tubas on those recordings...yet a completely unschooled listener could easily identify one's sound from the other's.

Yup. Which is why I'm not going to try to label either one as anything other than "Bobo" and "Phillips."

[k001k47]

The German sound is in German, and the American sound is in English. Although, the English and American English sounds are a tad bit different.

[bilmac]

Forty years ago as a young university student, I listened to all the Zubin Mehta recordings of Richard Strauss tone poems with the Los Angeles.I listened with headphones because I was in the Music Department of my university and that was what you did. It possibly made the recordings all the more vivid.Bobo was the tuba player on those recordings, Tommy Johnson may have played the second part on Zarathustra and as you can imagine ,not having had much access to recorded music until then it completely blew my mind.The sound was so different to anything I had heard up until then. I had heard Fletcher play his way and loved it,still do! But this was so different to anything I had heard--bright,direct,unapologetic,all those sort of things.
I played a solo in a recital a few years later which I didn't know was recorded on tape and listened to it at a friend's house a few months later. He was also a tuba player who had been playing at the same recital.I was playing the absolutely classic british gear in the recital,19" bell Besson,24AW mouthpiece but what I heard coming back at me that night was the sound world of Bobo and not Fletcher . I was amazed to hear that I was imitating what had impressed me most---Bobo!
The execution was not necessarily Bobo(I'm not a pro but I'm a big strong player)but there's no doubt that the sound spectrum was not Fletcher,it was the west coast.
So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it's not just what gear your are playing but I will readily admit that mouthpieces are a huge influence or why does Perantucci split their catalogue into American and German style mouthpieces,maybe more than the instrument itself,but a huge part of it is what you hear going on around you and what you admire in others' playing. We are after all just sophisticated imitators for the most part(ever notice how many musicians are fabulous mimics?) so we pick up what we hear.So if you were born in Germany you do it one way, if you were born in Atlanta you do it a different way and so on, you pick up what's going on around you and that's the way it was until this last 40/50 years or so when things may have changed a little.
With the prevalence of recordings and the tendency for European orchestras to lose some of their distictiveness we may see a standardisation of sound but not yet. Dresden and Leipzig still hold onto their sound, Berlin has let it go, Vienna is not sure where it is going but is probably going back a little to its traditional sound, Paris has sold out,Moscow can do either but it's all less distinctive than 40 years ago.But we still reflect what we like amongst what we hear.We can't help it.
Nature or Nurture? Discuss. Write on one side of the paper only.

[PhilGreen]

If I'm listening to Brass Bands I like the European "bass" sound, most especially the UK colour as it IS completely unique in the world of brass ensemble playing and this is the sound I aim to make.
If I'm listening to *big* orchestral stuff I like the European tuba sound, especially the Germanic colour - you really feel the bass and, as shown in some of the previous posting, organ-like and this is the sound I aim to make (difficult on a bass tuba but the fun is in trying)
If I'm listening to small brass ensemble (5 or 10) playing classical I want to sound like Fletch or James Gourlay - probably the best 2 ever in this genre (IMHO) so I try to make this sound.
If I'm listening to small brass ensemble (5 or 10) playing light stuff I want to sound like Sam Pilafian in the glory days of Empire Brass. That is really hard to copy but that's why I bought the rotary tuba!

I have plenty of recordings of great US tuba players in orchestral, ensemble and solo situations. Whilst all are technically great I find that none of them stir me or make me want to emulate their sound (except SP above) and whilst I appreciate the sound of the CSO York is unique I'd love to hear GP play on a great big rotary germanesque tuba. Perhaps he'd sound the same, who knows??

[PhilGreen]

Lately, from time-to-time, GP has been occasionally playing a "great big rotary [and BBb, to boot] Germanesque tuba" (except with piston valves ).

I'd bet a reasonable amount of money that he sounds like "GP" when playing that instrument.

Me too - unless he was purposely trying to sound more like Walter (not saying he should of course...)

Wonder what sound he'd have if he tried to sound like Fletch would have done if he'd played a great big Germanesque tuba? Or, even better, tried to sound like Sam trying to sound like Fletch trying to sound like Walter but on an EEb (with a 24AW )
That is one "global" sound I'd like to hear.

[Rick Denney]

When my lederhosen become liederhosen, people usually move away from me very quickly.

That is true for Ray, too.

Rick "sauerkraut's salubrious effect" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Where's Rick Denney to explain the differences in bi-radial and exponential horns?

What I wrote in the thread already linked still stands as my view on the topic.

...I doubt you'll hear the difference between the two instruments on a recording, for two reasons. 1.) The sound is more dictated by microphone placement and mixing than by what the audience would hear, and 2.) the noticeable differences between these instruments has for me involved propagation in the hall as much as timbre.

The difference is not fictional, however. I remember clearly when Mike Sanders switched from his Alex to his Yorkbrunner. Both were wonderful, but the Alex was a more distant sound that came from "over there", while the Yorkbrunner was a sweet, present sound that always seemed to be "right here". That perception glowed in the dark at the back row of the mezzanine of the Lila Cockrell Theater in San Antonio, which is a large hall that is hard to fill with sound. The Yorkbrunner had a sweetness to it that seemed to me friendly, while the Alex sound was more forbidding and imposing. Those are emotional descriptions, to be sure, but that doesn't make them any less real. The year was maybe 1984, but I can still hear both sounds in my head.

Whether it was the difference between an American design and German design, or the difference between a tall bell with a narrow flare versus a shorter, wider bell stack with a wider flare (as I suspect), I would have to speculate. So, while the cause is a matter of speculation, the effect was not subtle.

I don't think Mike was trying to sound good on one or ugly on the other. And I don't think he was trying to sound like anything but Mike. But the sound laid differently in hall just the same.

Rick "thinking the average German beer-tent tuba player is playing an electric bass" Denney

[pjv]

Thanks for your reply, Rick. This is when it gets interesting for me.

As a player, I just don't buy a horn only because it sounds good. A lot of tubas sound good. If I buy a tuba, often its because I'm looking for a specific tool to do a specific job. Most tubists are ok with the idea of buying a BAT for playing with large ensembles and a 4/4 for smaller ones, but the minute one starts questioning which model type (US vs German, in this case) people tend to get sarcastic, opinionated, or indecisive.

This seems to me to be unnecessary. I think that trumpetists have less problems with this. They choose (for example) a German trumpet for its sound and wouldn't even consider just bringing there favorite horn (whichever that might be) to a gig, unless of coarse the situation allowed for it.

True, being that many ensembles have just one tuba we have more leeway in our instrument choice. But whatever choice we make, it requires a bit of knowledge of the beast. A posting like this is an opportunity to discuss the effects of all these technical differences and there effects on sound; short flares, wide flares, long bells, short bells, long lead pipes, short lead pipes, rotary valves, piston valves, small bores with large conical expansion, large bores with less expansion, etc., etc.

Tubas are expensive, so often I have to find a tuba thats flexible for various types of musical needs (within reason). I'm also not in the position to travel all over the place to try out all the various types of tubas I'd like to test drive. The experiences of others over the years has thus been vital for me in narrowing down my choice of instrument.

In other words, this doesn't have to be a vague discussion describing the difference between apples and oranges.

-My 1/2 cent
Pat

[Rick Denney]

As a player, I just don't buy a horn only because it sounds good. A lot of tubas sound good. If I buy a tuba, often its because I'm looking for a specific tool to do a specific job.

I think if you dig back into the archives from when Mike Sanders was describing his own thought processes, you'll find very similar statements.

I would certainly not want my Holton to be my only tuba. The sound is just too big and deep for, say, quintet, and it lays so much volume out there that it becomes difficult for me not to bury the rest of the ensemble. And the F tuba is so much more agile in those situations. If I had only one tuba, it would probably be a 4/4 rotary contrabass--which was my only tuba back before I started building the fleet.

Rick "who has played a Fafner in comparison with his Holton, and thought they were on different planets" Denney

[TubaRay]

Rick "thinking the average German beer-tent tuba player is playing an electric bass" Denney

Unfortunately, this is more often true than not true.

And, "unfortunately" is the correct choice of words. There are a few of us who are knocking out 4 hr. gigs on tuba, however. And, this without picking up a bass.

[padgman1]

I appreciate the informative comments and academic explanations.......Will continue to play the WONDERFUL Conn 5J I purchased from Dan Schultz last summer (as I am only playing in local community bands for now) until I get "more serious" ......... and as a physician, I don't see myself practicing hours daily to get THAT serious.....

[Lectron]

On great Tuba player stated that German and Russian programs sounded better and should be played with a BBb tuba

German sound right there?