water

[Dan Schultz]

Naw. I SPIT in my horn, Joe!

[Joe Stanko]

Joe, when I took some lessons with Mr. Kleinhammer, he admonished me for blowing hard to empty the "spit valve". He used the analogy of going up to a mirror and slowly breathing "hooooooo" with the result being more condensation than a "hissier" airstream.

I don't necessarily agree with you in that excessive water is a result of working too hard..I think it's a question of "warm air" as opposed to "cold air". Or "fast air" vs. "slow air" if you will.

For myself, I have found on bass trombone and tuba that the sound is better when there is more water being emptied. I think that for any particular combination of mouthpiece and instrument the resistances will shape this warm/cold air aspect.

This is a topic I have rarely seen mentioned but it is fascinating. Think of the sound you get using more of a "hiss" as compared to "hoooooooo"...it works great for lead trumpet players - why not have it in your toolbox as a low brass player?

[Walter Webb]

All I know is whenever I empty the water valve, everyone yells "Ewww!!" I tell them it's just condensation, NOT saliva, but noooo, they won't hear of it. Ditto on the cold weather increase in condensation.

[Uncle Buck]

According to wikipedia, even straight saliva is 98% water.

[imperialbari]

And the lime so often seen in leadpipes and around valves then of course would have entered the tubing dissolved in humid air or as evaporated calcium?

Or would it have entered the tubing dissolved in spit?

Klaus

[GC]

We're tuba players. It's drool, and we're proud of it.

[Tubazilla]

Even though it is "water"... I still wouldn't risk drinking it.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

The only other thing that would effect the volume of water a player would produce in a tuba would be how cold or warm a tuba is. The colder the tuba is the warm air from the player will create more condisation in the tuba creating more water.

I played a concert last summer that was outside, on a very hot, dry day (It was not unlike playing on the surface of the Sun). I was amazed that each time I went to empty the spit valve, I came up empty!

[Alex C]

And the lime so often seen in leadpipes and around valves then of course would have entered the tubing dissolved in humid air or as evaporated calcium?

Or would it have entered the tubing dissolved in spit?

Klaus

Both, I would think. The deposits would be a result of matter (food particles, exhaust wastes, etc.) expelled into the closed system via the operator.

[Stefan]

I teach middle school. It's spit. At least that's what the non brass playing girls say.

Stefan

[imperialbari]

None of the more or less hard matters will dissolve in evaporated water. They will dissolve in ever so small droplets of fluid H2O: spit!

As bloke often enough, at least for me to remember, has told of leadpipes being narrowed by deposits of polluted lime, he in my way of thinking already had blown part of the basis for his idea of making spit an insignificant part of the water coming out of the spit valve.

I never heard of players liking to play with a dry mouths. Most players will have smaller or larger amounts of spit around their tongue. The water blown off the tip of the tongue is constantly being replaced by the tongue operating in and out of wetter areas.

The telling of no water coming out of the spit valves when playing in hot and dry environments does not kill the truth about spit always entering the leadpipe during brass playing. We all know about holding a warm instrument. The heat going through the brass of the tubing into the inside air column will cause the spit to evaporate before gravity has a chance to move it down to the spit valve.

There also are lots of evaporated water moved from the player into the instrument. And those lots vary from player to player. There are players with inefficient embouchures that take too much air to operate. That may result in lots of condensed water coming out of the spit valve.

When I have practiced enough to like my own playing shape, I can play longer notes than would be expected from my not very impressive lung capacity after many decades of asthma problems. So I guess my embouchure is reasonably efficient. And I unload lots of water through the spit valve. Partially because I prefer a cool environment. Partially because I have to drink a lot of water during playing sessions to avoid my lungs feeling stiffened from the wrong proportions between proteins and water on their inner surface. Sadly I cannot direct the water to my lungs exclusively. The kidneys steal a lot of it.

Klaus

[gwwilk]

We're resurrecting an old argument that was part of a 'stage deportment' discussion a year ago. A dissenter to the 'condensate' rather than 'spit' theory was the Resident Genius: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43503&hilit=spit+co ... n&start=36. I don't think it's pure condensate, although if Ivory Soap at 99.44% pure could claim purity, then perhaps the discharge from our 'spit' valves is pretty close to that level, too. What mostly gums up our instruments is what we put into our mouths prior to playing them without properly cleansing the residue of said substances. Lee Stofer, who despite knowing what is involved is kind enough to chem clean my tubas when I request it, would probably say that my diligence in this regard is sadly lacking, although I do try.

[Dan Schultz]

And the lime so often seen in leadpipes and around valves then of course would have entered the tubing dissolved in humid air or as evaporated calcium?....

Although not an authority on the subject of 'spit'... I would think that ALL forms of water-based material contains trace amounts of calcium/lime such as can be found by allowing a bowl of water evaporate an then looking at the dry material left in the bottom of the bowl.... commonly referred to as 'hard water deposits'.

[imperialbari]

Rain is water condensed from evaporated H2O. Rain is not known to contain calcium of any significan amount. Whereas it may contain ammonia from evaporated livestock urine or acid from residues of burning fossil coal or fuel.

The residuals like in the bowl do not come from H2O in evaporated form. They come because the H2O transforming from fluid state to air state no longer is able to dissolve the lime.

I cannot exclude that some consciously careless players will allow food particles sensed as separate particles on their tongues to be catapulted into the instrument by the attack procedures of the tongue. But my take is that most of the food ending up in the instrument is down to a particle size, where it is not sensed as separate elements. The food maybe is not exactly dissolved in the water, but rather flowing in the spit. Anyway most food ending up in the instruments came there transported by water: spit!

[TUBAD83]

The only other thing that would effect the volume of water a player would produce in a tuba would be how cold or warm a tuba is. The colder the tuba is the warm air from the player will create more condisation in the tuba creating more water.

I played a concert last summer that was outside, on a very hot, dry day (It was not unlike playing on the surface of the Sun). I was amazed that each time I went to empty the spit valve, I came up empty!

Good topic for discussion, Joe thanks.

I play two very large tubas in a building where the a/c works VERY well--the room is cold, so I am emptying my horn just about after every piece we play--if its a multi movement piece, I empty between movements. One horn I owned (Chinese King 2341 clone) was really nice but I was constantly emptying it to the point I had to sell it.

My question: how much of a role does the design of the horn play when it comes to condensation?

JJ

[Alex C]

transported by water: spit!

Spit and water are not the same things. You drink water, I could not convince many people to drink spit.

While spit (saliva) is composed mostly of water it also contains, proteins, enzymes, lysozyme, mucus. In an environment such as the inside tubing of a tuba, spit combines with food particles & bacteria and the result is the usual junk we clean out of our instruments. It is the combination of all of these, plus the materials in the metal (and left over from manufacturing process), chemicals (oil, grease, 'sprays') we introduce into the environment, can cause any number of results inside the tubing.

I concur with other posters who believe that the most of ‘water’ in the horn is condensation. The percentage of spit to condensed water could be the source of someone’s doctoral dissertation which would, of course, completely alter the course of brass performance as we know it.

[GC]

Condensation in instruments from air blown through them has to come from the lungs and mouth. If it was lungs only, there wouldn't be calcium deposits related to it. A number of things besides carbon dioxide and water are in exhaled air, but I doubt that more than a tiny fraction is calcium.

A lot of water comes from exhaled breath, and the only place it comes from is the lungs, bronchial tubes, trachea, pharynx, and mouth. Unless you pick up calcium from the mouth (spit, in other words), the only source of water is going to be the lungs or mucus, neither of which should be sources of calcium. So the main source of calcium deposits in instruments should be the mouth.

Please rebut as needed.

[imperialbari]

Water coming out of the mouth (as was implied by the very contents of this thread)= spit! We may discuss the percentage of non-H2O contents, but spit anyway.

[ezmusic94]

All I know is whenever I empty the water valve, everyone yells "Ewww!!" I tell them it's just condensation, NOT saliva, but noooo, they won't hear of it. Ditto on the cold weather increase in condensation.

Story of my life!

[GC]

Water coming out of the mouth (as was implied by the very contents of this thread)= spit!

Not really. Put a glass into the refrigerator and get cold. Breathe gently into the glass so that no spit comes out. That's condensation from the lungs that forms, not spit.