CSO - VW!!!!!!

[fairweathertuba]

Also, the use of the larger instrument results in a muddying of the sound to a certain degree, due to the nonsoloistic nature of the beast. By the time the sound arrives at the far reaches of the hall, the clarity of playing is lost to a certain degree. While not note perfect to begin with (and the next time I hear a note perfect live performance will be the first), the challenge of getting the music across is made even more difficult due to the acoustical nature of the larger instrument.

Maybe I'm just an old fart and am too conservative in my views, but I know what I like when I hear it. Unfortunately, I didn't hear it Wednesday evening.

I have been disappointed a couple of times going to hear an excellent tubist play a concerto and they play it on a 5/4 CC. Both times the sound was so blurred an muddied in technical passages as to be totally incomprehensible. One time I had a chance to talk to the performer in a casual setting a couple hours after the performance.

I was only a sophomore in H.S. at the time just a skinny kid and saw the performer standing around by himself eating an ice cream cone a couple hours after the concert. I walked up and said "Hey you're so and so aren't you?" and he said "Yeah". Anyway we had a brief conversation where I questioned why he chose to play such a technical piece on a 5/4 tuba and he mentioned something about the sound being more impressive. I pointed out that while he was probably playing everything really great, the acoustics of the auditorium and the instrument choice made everything sound extremely muddy and disappointing from my audience aspect. I remember me walking away feeling somewhat sheepish for talking to an established player in that way, while he was still licking on the ice cream cone and looking a little miffed.

[UDELBR]

Berlioz is one of the most over the top control freaks out there. ... his words need to be taken with a grain of salt, or a truck-load of salt....

Well, he's long dead and obviously incapable of defending himself, his compositions, or his written opinions of them. But his intent in this quote crystal clear.

[drow2buh]

At the end of the performance all I thought was when someone posted a bootleg copy of this on the net, the entire tuba world is going to get a real kick in the butt! Sooooooo, you asked for it, here is the video of it http://www.windsongpress.com/GENE.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank

Bravo Gene!!

[fairweathertuba]

Berlioz is one of the most over the top control freaks out there. ... his words need to be taken with a grain of salt, or a truck-load of salt....

Well, he's long dead and obviously incapable of defending himself, his compositions, or his written opinions of them. But his intent in this quote crystal clear.

If you want some interesting reading, go look up Berlioz in a university or local library. Today he is probably best known for his Symphony Fantastique but he also wrote a treatise or two on orchestration, played the guitar and had a dislike of composers who relied heavily on the piano, had some wild adventures as a youth, often played percussion in orchestras when not conducting and was a well known music critic in his time. The only thing that would have made him even cooler would have been if he was also a tubist!

[MartyNeilan]

I have been disappointed a couple of times going to hear an excellent tubist play a concerto and they play it on a 5/4 CC. Both times the sound was so blurred an muddied in technical passages as to be totally incomprehensible. One time I had a chance to talk to the performer in a casual setting a couple hours after the performance.

I was only a sophomore in H.S. at the time just a skinny kid and saw the performer standing around by himself eating an ice cream cone a couple hours after the concert. I walked up and said "Hey you're so and so aren't you?" and he said "Yeah". Anyway we had a brief conversation where I questioned why he chose to play such a technical piece on a 5/4 tuba and he mentioned something about the sound being more impressive. I pointed out that while he was probably playing everything really great, the acoustics of the auditorium and the instrument choice made everything sound extremely muddy and disappointing from my audience aspect. I remember me walking away feeling somewhat sheepish for talking to an established player in that way, while he was still licking on the ice cream cone and looking a little miffed.

I have heard some tuba profs and clinicians pontificate on Dah tongue, soft tonguing, and "emulating a cello bow" for solo playing. I have also heard very muddied articulations. I believe that a big horn can do many solos justice, if played with an appropriate mouthpiece (leave the bucket at home) and clearly articulated.

[happyroman]

Finally, I understand that Gene spent a great deal of time doing his "research" to determine where appropriate changes to the score could be made. However, his decisions to (1)transpose octaves, 92)change articulations, and make changes to tempo which are not specifically indicated in the score, in my opinion, went too far. I don't recall ever hearing Herseth taking sections of the Haydn up (or down) an octave, etc., and I didn't particularly want to hear Gene do it in performance the other night.

You are absolutely entitled to have your opinion. It's unfortunate that you were disappointed...

Not to flame away, but here are the issues that I raise to your statements... The first one is hypothetical and not that important, but the second one is worth investigating more...

(1) How is this different than playing the second movement on Cello and not being able to play the low B natural so taking p the octave the whole phrase?


(2) So there is only one set of articulations for this piece and every edition conveniently shows this?

You raise a couple of interesting points that I can't completely disagree or argue with. The hypothetical is a little easier, since we are talking about playing a work on a completely different instrument, so accommodations must be made.

As for your second point, yes, I am quite aware of the numerous differences between the original score and the published edition(s) we all know and love (love/hate?). The published edition I studied for years is chock full of errors, and I applaud anyone that takes the time to go back to the manuscript and correct them. In that process, the artist is making sure the audience hears what the composer actually wrote.

However, it is my understanding, based on what I've read here, that Gene went well beyond that point, and that is what I was taking issue with.

My main area of disappointment with the performance, however, was the choice to use the York and add in all the pedal register playing. In a hall that size, there was a lot of playing that was not as distinct as it could have been on a bass tuba.

And for the average concert goer, I suspect that they were not able to appreciate the pedal notes in the same way the readers of this forum could, so they were likely turned off by the sound of the pedal octaves.

When I studied with Arnold Jacobs, the number one instruction he would hammer home in each lesson was "always try to play with your finest quality of tone." In a solo setting, that's very difficult to do in the pedal register, especially at louder dynamics.

And just to reiterate. I think Gene played GREAT. My concerns are strictly limited to his choices. He obviously has the right to play the piece any way that he believes is musically acceptable. I have the right not to like it. Just my opinion, FWIW.

[Gator]

http://chicagomaroon.com/2012/05/22/ent ... y-concert/

The Vaughan Williams Tuba Concerto, the second piece of the night, is something of an anomaly. Williams, a Brit, was famously most comfortable writing deeply nostalgic works. Despite its enduring popularity (not least among tubists, to whom it offers a handful of showy solos), the concerto has not been particularly influential. It’s an enjoyable work; indeed, it’s almost impossible to listen to principal tubist Gene Pokorny play in the instrument’s lower reaches without giggling at some of the visceral incongruity in Williams’s musical juxtaposition. The breezy, 13-minute performance received a hearty ovation.

[Rick Denney]

http://chicagomaroon.com/2012/05/22/ent ... y-concert/

I thought big cities like Chicago had qualified reviewers.

1.) It's "Vaughan Williams", not "Williams". First name is Ralph. Yes, the last name has two words, no hyphen. Anybody with a modicum of learning on major composers should know this--RVW should not be obscure to a music critic. Williams was a different guy. He wrote a tuba concerto, too.

2.) "Famously most comfortable writing deeply nostalgic works"? Where do people get this crap? Nostalgic of what? Just because he wrote a few folk-song settings and developed his harmonies using modes popular in the Rennaissance that are not major and minor it's nostalgic? Those who wrote in major and minor modes, which are no newer than Dorian or Mixylodian, somehow escape being nostalgic? Could even the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, which really does use an ancient theme, have been written earlier than the 20th Century, with that instrumentation and harmonization? If the nostalgic intentions of RVW were famous, shouldn't he or any of his (learned) biographers have said so? Could anyone think the Vaughan Williams 4th Symphony is nostalgic? Or Sancta Civitas, or Job, a Masque for Dancing, or even Scott of the Antartic? It's nostalgic just because it sinks its roots into a different tradition than other late-Romantic/early-modern composers?

The RVW Tuba Concerto was never intended as a great work, but it is one of the few tuba concertos by a major composer, and one of even fewer that could be considered a part of the standard repertoire. That alone gives it historical influence. If something more influential is so easy to contemplate, why has nothing else earned its place in the repertoire?

I do not understand the sneering way in which some critics in this country disregard Vaughan Williams. There are many composers of much less power and breadth who get much greater interest, apparently simply because they were not nice, big, friendly, self-deprecating, non-neurotic English professor-types.

Rick "thinking 'Chicago Maroon' is misspelled" Denney

[Steve Marcus]

FWIW, Rick, as a 20+ year Chicago-area resident who is not completely illiterate, this is the first time that the "Chicago Maroon," the newsletter of the University of Chicago, was brought to my attention.

Anyone of any level of intelligence, knowledge and scope of music, etc., can start up a web page that contains so-called music criticism.

Perhaps that will help to diffuse your heated but valid commentary on the "Chicago Maroon's" narrow view of the works of RVW.

I believe that John von Rhein's position at the Chicago Tribune is as safe as any other classical music critic's in this country.

[Rick Denney]

I didn't realize it was a college rag. Sophomores can be expected to sometimes be sophomoric. I thought it was some alternate-media rag that prides itself on being culturally hip.

So, the focus of my heat shifts slightly to whatever book the author was cribbing from to make himself seem smart.

Rick "no longer wondering what was maroon in Chicago" Denney

[luke_hollis]

Many of the CSO concerts are posted online by the CSO at the following address within 1-2 months of the performance. The VW concert would likely show up in late June/July.

http://cso.org/ListenAndWatch/CSORadioRSS.aspx

Right now there is an especially good concert featuring a new piece called Alternative Energy and the Franck Symphony in D minor. While I am not usually a fan of new composition, the Alternative Energy piece is really quite amazing and tonal and I think better than the Franck.

[Bob Kolada]

I've seen Gene Pokorny play a few times and have always liked his sound, musicality, and personality. I still have no interest in hearing another orchestral player play the RVW. YMMV, especially if you're a product of the machine...

[Rick Denney]

I've seen Gene Pokorny play a few times and have always liked his sound, musicality, and personality. I still have no interest in hearing another orchestral player play the RVW. YMMV, especially if you're a product of the machine...

I'll bet I've heard a dozen pianists play Beethoven's Emperor Concerty. Yes, it's a masterwork. But even after a couple of centuries, I find no two of those performances alike, and each brings something new (and maybe worthwhile). Maybe the reason you have no interest is that you haven't heard the interpretation that will surprise you. I guess you'll never know, though.

Rick "expanded horizons are not just for new music" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

I certainly understand interpretation and all that, I'm just tired of orchestral players. Also, I really don't care for that song.

[Ken Herrick]

Yes, there will be a netcast, as I posted a few weeks ago............

wfmt.com 1PM Central time July22

Of course, this will only be of interest to us poor maroons who think some orchestral player doing this song might be of interest; the real experts just don't like that sort of thing.

I'll leave it to one of the techies to tell you how to record it.

[Steve Marcus]

I'll leave it to one of the techies to tell you how to record it.

In the good ol' analog days, it was simple:

Tune the FM dial on your boom box to 98.7, adjust your rabbit ear/telescoping antenna accordingly, and press the red record button on the cassette player.

Now, with compressed sound on the streamed Internet broadcast...

All this is, of course, looking askance at the legal ramifications and the rights of the performing artist(s). One solution to that dilemma was already suggested in this thread: let CSO Resound offer the recording for sale or, as was done at the last CSO Brass concert at Orchestra Hall, offer a gift card for 5 free downloads.

[PMeuph]

I'll leave it to one of the techies to tell you how to record it.

There are a number of Youtube videos that explain and show, step-by-step, how to use audacity to record streaming audio. They work only on PC. Mac users need to put a cable in their output and one in the input... (There are virtual ways of doing this, but it is much more complex)

[joshwirt]

Mac users can use this $10 app to record any audio source on their computer:

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/41057/piezo

I personally use WireTap Studio for recording audio streams of concerts, etc. Its a bit more $$$$, but has great features like iCal scheduling and automation, audio editing, and cataloging.

[luke_hollis]

Many of the CSO concerts are posted online by the CSO at the following address within 1-2 months of the performance. The VW concert would likely show up in late June/July.

http://cso.org/ListenAndWatch/CSORadioRSS.aspx

Right now there is an especially good concert featuring a new piece called Alternative Energy and the Franck Symphony in D minor. While I am not usually a fan of new composition, the Alternative Energy piece is really quite amazing and tonal and I think better than the Franck.

As anticipated, the concert with the VW concerto will be available online starting July 20 at this link.

http://cso.org/ListenAndWatch/CSORadioRSS.aspx

If you want a full download of all their online programs, go to http://cso.org/uploadedFiles/CSORadio_3 ... stings.pdf

[Steve Marcus]

WFMT 98.7 FM Broadcast on Sunday, July 22, at 1:00 CDT:

Principal tubist Gene Pokorny is an anchor of the CSO’s legendary brass section and widely respected by colleagues, pupils and concertgoers. He demonstrates the entirety of the tuba’s range of expression in Vaughan Williams’ animated concerto. Jaap van Zweden leads Beethoven’s Seventh Symphony, which the composer himself called “one of my best works.”

Shostakovich: Chamber Symphony, Op 110a
Vaughan Williams: Tuba Concerto in F Minor (Gene Pokorny, tuba)
Beethoven: Symphony No 7 in A Major, Op 92
Shostakovich: Cello Concerto No 2, Op 126 (Han-Na Chang, cello; Antonio Pappano, conductor)