Nickel vs. Silver plating

[fairweathertuba]

What's the difference in durability, looks, repair-ability and dare I say it; tone? Additionally, it seems a lot of manufacturer's don't offer nickel, why don't they?

[fairweathertuba]

People like silver - from what I understand silver has a brighter finish than nickel.

I agree that silver tends to be brighter, I wonder if nickel plate tarnishes approximately the same as silver if so there doesn't seem to be much advantage to it other than it being cheaper.

[Dan Schultz]

Nickel is a MUCH harder plating material than silver. Silver tarnishes easily but is easy to polish again. Nickel also tarnishes but in a different sort of way. Instead of turning black like silver... nickel just turns dull and is difficult to polish again. Chrome polish and a high-speed buff can be used on nickel but will destroy a silver finish.

If dents happen (and they will)... nickel tends to crack and distress while silver will bend with the brass. If nickel looses adhesion... it can flake off or come off in large strips.

As far as repair goes... nickel loves silver about the same as silver does. A low lead content solder (less than 40% lead) needs to be used for repairs to try to avoid discoloration.

I've owned and played both nickel and silver horns and can't really offer much regarding how differently they play since the coatings were on totally different horns. For example... I've never played both a nickel and a silver St. Pete. I would expect performance to be not much different. There are other factors that make bigger differences.

[pierso20]

Nickel is odd - it's much more mirror like on the instrument.

I have the unfortunate problem of being allergic to nickel as well. I didn't know this when I bought a nickel plated St. Pete! My had rashes on my wrists and was forced to wear wristbands!!

[TMurphy]

I think the reason more brass manufacturers don't use nickel is because while it's cheaper than silver, it's probably still more expensive (and labor intensive to put on) than a coat of lacquer. Probably less durable, too, for the reasons Dan said. Nickel plating is pretty common on cheap flutes, since flutes are always plated with/made of silver. This is entirely guesswork, of course, and I could be totally wrong, but it seems plausible, to me.

[Wyvern]

My only experience of nickel silver plating has been playing a friend's St.Pete, but must say I was surprisingly impressed. He had not polished for months, but it still had a good sheen unlike would silver, it did not seem to get finger marks like silver and he demonstrated with Simichrome Metal Polish it comes up really shiny, while for pealing plating I was shown replaced very badly damaged pipe which had not pealed at all.

From an audience point of view it looked as shiny as the silver plated euphonium in front, although has a darker tint.

Nickel plating has not been common in the UK, but from this exposure it looks to have some merit, not least if you want shiny silver appearance without lots of polishing, so I am considering for Wessex Tubas to offer as alternative to silver and lacquer on some tubas.

[bort]

I forget where I read it, but seem to remember that historically, nickel was preferred over silver in places where there was a lot of salty sea air (which makes the silver tarnish much faster). I think it was common in places Like northern Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark...). This way, you could still have a shiny "silver-like" appearance with less (or at least different) issues.

[bort]

I forget where I read it, but seem to remember that historically, nickel was preferred over silver in places where there was a lot of salty sea air (which makes the silver tarnish much faster). I think it was common in places Like northern Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark...). This way, you could still have a shiny "silver-like" appearance with less (or at least different) issues.

[MikeW]

I have the unfortunate problem of being allergic to nickel as well. I didn't know this when I bought a nickel plated St. Pete! My had rashes on my wrists and was forced to wear wristbands!!

Nickel and Nickel-Silver (aka German silver, an alloy of Nickel and Copper) make a durable, attractive, low maintenance coating, but have a high risk of causing allergy problems, which would be a good reason for not using them.

An hour or so with Google turned up the following:

Nickel allergy has become very common because of the use of Nickel alloys in clothing fasteners (zips, buckles, etc), jewelry (including watch straps and their buckles), and especially in body-piercings.

Prolonged contact with alloys containing Nickel causes sensitization of the immune system to Nickel, leading to "Nickel Itch", or contact dermatitis. This affects about one person in nine (possibly as many as one in eight). Once your immune system becomes sensitized to Nickel, the problem is with you for life. It causes rashes, hives, blisters, swelling, and/or severe itching etc. to appear at and around the point of contact - all of these are of course very unpleasant (for instance, I have a worn mouthpiece with exposed Nickel, which raises blisters on my lips after about forty minutes playing). The only cure is avoiding contact with Nickel.

The EU has therefore issued regulations restricting the rate at which Nickel can be released from surfaces intended for skin-contact, and I very much doubt that a Nickel-plated surface can meet the limits. I am not a lawyer, so don't rely on me, but there is a strong chance that exposed Nickel plating is not permissible under EU regulations. Similar regulations are under consideration in the USA.

Note that when brass is plated, a layer of Copper is applied first, to improve adhesion, followed by a layer of Nickel, to prevent the Copper from migrating through the plating to the surface, where it would cause discoloration and tarnishing. The Silver or Gold is then applied over the Nickel, and must be thick enough to prevent the Nickel from migrating to the surface.

Allergies to metallic Silver or Gold are possible, but extremely rare; These problems are usually caused by Nickel added to the precious metal to harden it, or by migration of Nickel from the under layer through a worn or scratched coating.

[Wyvern]

The EU has therefore issued regulations restricting the rate at which Nickel can be released from surfaces intended for skin-contact, and I very much doubt that a Nickel-plated surface can meet the limits. I am not a lawyer, so don't rely on me, but there is a strong chance that exposed Nickel plating is not permissible under EU regulations. Similar regulations are under consideration in the USA.

The EU rules are;
The Regulations prohibit the supply of any products intended to come into direct and prolonged contact with the skin, which contain nickel or a nickel compound, including:
earrings
necklaces, bracelets, chains, anklets and finger rings
wrist-watch cases, watch straps and tighteners
rivet buttons, tighteners, rivets and zippers and metal marks contained in or intended to be used in garments

So sounds like it does not include tubas, but caution is still sensible!

[modelerdc]

I always wondered why the Nickel plated Conn 48H bells were always lacquered. No I can see that Conn did the right thing, avoids contact dermatitus, and no problem with tough polishing of the Nickel

[pierso20]

I have the unfortunate problem of being allergic to nickel as well. I didn't know this when I bought a nickel plated St. Pete! My had rashes on my wrists and was forced to wear wristbands!!

Nickel and Nickel-Silver (aka German silver, an alloy of Nickel and Copper) make a durable, attractive, low maintenance coating, but have a high risk of causing allergy problems, which would be a good reason for not using them.

An hour or so with Google turned up the following:

Nickel allergy has become very common because of the use of Nickel alloys in clothing fasteners (zips, buckles, etc), jewelry (including watch straps and their buckles), and especially in body-piercings.

Prolonged contact with alloys containing Nickel causes sensitization of the immune system to Nickel, leading to "Nickel Itch", or contact dermatitis. This affects about one person in nine (possibly as many as one in eight). Once your immune system becomes sensitized to Nickel, the problem is with you for life. It causes rashes, hives, blisters, swelling, and/or severe itching etc. to appear at and around the point of contact - all of these are of course very unpleasant (for instance, I have a worn mouthpiece with exposed Nickel, which raises blisters on my lips after about forty minutes playing). The only cure is avoiding contact with Nickel.

The EU has therefore issued regulations restricting the rate at which Nickel can be released from surfaces intended for skin-contact, and I very much doubt that a Nickel-plated surface can meet the limits. I am not a lawyer, so don't rely on me, but there is a strong chance that exposed Nickel plating is not permissible under EU regulations. Similar regulations are under consideration in the USA.

Note that when brass is plated, a layer of Copper is applied first, to improve adhesion, followed by a layer of Nickel, to prevent the Copper from migrating through the plating to the surface, where it would cause discoloration and tarnishing. The Silver or Gold is then applied over the Nickel, and must be thick enough to prevent the Nickel from migrating to the surface.

Allergies to metallic Silver or Gold are possible, but extremely rare; These problems are usually caused by Nickel added to the precious metal to harden it, or by migration of Nickel from the under layer through a worn or scratched coating.

Summed up my experience. My "blisters" were more just an itchy rash but I had the same problem on my mpc, which was nickel. I never thought it was the nickel until I had my St. Pete. BUT, for many years I couldn't wear any kind of necklaces or rings...I thought it was the gold. Turns out, is was the nickel alloy underneath!

[MikeW]

' gotta love "regulations".

If it means I won't be getting red welts across my belly from the "Rivet-button" fasteners on my jeans, and bleeding blisters from the buckle on my watch strap, then yes I love this regulation.

Wait until you see what they're cooking up for "traditional" soldered-brass teapots.

[bort]

' gotta love "regulations".

I know, huh? It's like the stupid old joke (or similar)...

Person: "Hey Doctor! My arm hurts when I turn it this way..."
Doctor: "Well, don't turn your arm that way!"

[MikeW]

I'm not too keen on liver cancer caused by aflatoxins in mouldy peanuts, either. Fortunately, there are regulations in place that cover my back, so I don't have to be constantly on my guard against hazards that I'm not aware of, or don't understand, or couldn't detect anyway.

There have always been, and will always be, psychopaths willing to make a fast buck by selling toxic foodstuffs or adulterated medicines, or other dangerous products; We are fortunate enough to live in a civilization that at least tries to protect us by maintaining strong regulations... or do you actually enjoy feeding your cats melamine flavored kitty treats ? or having half your home town crippled by toxic sub-standard cooking oil ? or by toxic Mercury waste dumped off-shore in the fishing grounds ?
Would you like to go back to the days when your local flour mill ground bones in with the wheat, and spread Anthrax all round the neighborhood, or when the milkman watered down his milk from the wrong well and started a Cholera epidemic ? Or when the local granary let the grain get too moist, and the entire town went raving mad with ergot poisoning before dying of gangrene ? Because that's par for the course in countries where the regulations just ain't strong enough. Damn right adults gotta love regulations !

<rant mode off>

Our local environmental expert figured that the Nickel-in-jewelry type regs probably won't apply to plating on tubas, but suggested the health and safety at work regs might cover Nickel exposure, especially on inhalation of particulates if you're planning on buffing these things, and possibly for handling of Nickel plating (which would apply to playing a plated tuba).

If you're planning on using a torch around Nickel plating, you should probably bear in mind that Nickel plus hot Carbon Monoxide reacts to produce Nickel Carbonyl, which is a yellow liquid that readily vaporizes, and will rot your lungs at levels as low as one part per million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_tetracarbonyl

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/20 ... rbonyl.php

I seem to remember someone wanting to Nickel plate the insides of exhaust systems, to make them more corrosion resistant. Imagine city streets full of Nickel plated exhausts, belching clouds of fresh Nickel Carbonyl at rush hour. Regulations to the rescue again.

But we don't needa no steenkin' regulations, eh ?

And now the good news:

In the nickel industry's view, significant risks are not normally associated with the use of nickel, nickel-containing alloys or nickel-containing products, with the exception of the use of nickel and some nickel alloys in jewellery.

Of course we all trust the Nickel industry.

[sceuphonium]

I've had a nickel plated trombone for about 40years. I never polish it. After 15 years or so parts were starting to look a bit dull. I loaned it to a relative and she turned it bright as new; don't know what she did to it, but it's still bright after another 25 years. Not as shiny as silver, but looks good, and NO work to maintain. Can't comment on dents and cracking... the few small dings I've collected have never been repaired, and never cracked either.

John Thompson

[fairweathertuba]

This is much more complex than I thought it would be. However, I am pleased that tubenetters were able to bring quite a bit of information to light.

[fairweathertuba]

End of the world or possibly only the thread?

Anyway, I thought one or two guys would've responded with "yeah silver is better cause I can shine it up real nice", and maybe another guy would've responded "I've got an eighty four year old nickel plated hot plate that shines like the morning sun, so nickel gets my vote!" Really didn't know that possibly the survival of mankind could be threatened by the wrong choice here!

[Wyvern]

I never knew that Nickel plated tubas should carry a heath warning attached!

I have a question - although only a few tubas are nickel-plated, many have nickel silver fittings including rotary valve levers where fingers touch. Are these also a health risk???

[Dan Schultz]

I never knew that Nickel plated tubas should carry a heath warning attached!

Obviously I will not sell tubas which are a danger to their buyers, so will cease any ideas of ordering nickel-plated stock for Wessex.

I have a question - although only a few tubas are nickel-plated, many have nickel silver fittings including rotary valve levers where fingers touch. Are these also a health risk???

ALL tubas except those produced very recently (or that are glued together!) are assembled with solder containing some degree of lead.

I play my tuba. I don't chew on it!

However... my buffing room could probably qualify for Super Fund Cleanup!