"cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

[pierre]

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/se ... ves&pos=11

Close.

[pierre]

There's also one on the wall at Dillon's that looks quite old.

[fairweathertuba]

Cimbassos are typically used to deafen New Yorkers on busy street corners are they not?

[fairweathertuba]

http://maillists.samford.edu/pipermail/ ... 17843.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Apparently the modern version of the cimbasso wasn't invented until the 1950's or so. I'm just going by some random webpage that google found for me, for all I know it could be complete baloney but it sounds plausible.

[imperialbari]

From an older eBay auction:

tuba--cimbasso--trombone verdistowasser 4 cilindri

Description()revisedRaro strumento! Stowasser 4 cilindri! nikelato! da revisionare, alcuni pezzi mancanti come evidenziati in foto.

l 10-dic-03, il venditore ha aggiunto le seguenti informazioni sull'oggetto:
Raro strumento,CIMBASSO-TROMBONE VERDI BBb contrabbasso!!! 4cilindri,diam. campana 27, tutte le pompe sono estraibili non presenta ammaccature,lo strumento è in buono stato,mancano due tappi cilindri.Perfetto per il repertorio di VERDI e VAGNER.Necessita di piccola manutenzione ordinaria.

[imperialbari]

Bell engraving.jpg

[imperialbari]

Using parts from Stowasser’s department in Verona? Like the Czech original company hardly known since WWII aside from the name been used on some Chinese stencils. And the nickel plated?

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Bell diameter is 27cm.

What pitch of this instrument does that measurement make likely when comparing to valve lengths?

Does this instrument look narrow-bore like most German-Czech valve trombone?

From which pitch of tubas do we mostly know that bulb profile in the 2nd slide?

Photo quality isn’t impressive, but didn’t come better.

[k001k47]

What's that, the score calls for ophicleide? I'll take my subcotrabass tuba anway.

[pjv]

http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-12518-pari ... basso.aspx" target="_blank" target="_blank

Dillons used to have two of these. Matt might know the dates of this one and the one that sold.

Heres another Stowasser;
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/display.php ... imbasso%22" target="_blank

My 2 cents;
if I made brass instruments and someone asked for a special order contrabass valved bass-trombone, I'd use as many parts available from existing instruments. As well, brass manufacturers often buy parts from other manufactures if at that point in time its to their advantage.

As many here already know, the contrabass valved-trombone or the cylindrical tuba (or the almost very much cylindrical tuba) became popular in the 2nd 1/2 of the 20thC and certainly thrived in the film studio industry. My gut feeling says it wasn't too popular before then because of the limits of brass technology at the time. The longer the cylindrical brass instrument the stuffier it tends to play. With the advancements in brass making it becomes easier to make cylindrical contras that play, well, like a musical instrument should. Again, this is just a spilling my guts feeling.

I've know idea why all the cylindrical contras are made in cavaliers trombone form. The Jimbasso form seems to me to be better balanced less fragile. But I feel that the only interesting question an orchestra/opera tubist and/or conducter should ask themselves is whether or not they feel that an orchestration calls for the use of a cylindrical contra or not. What it looks like is for the most part secondary, isn't it?

What I do know is that I'm happy to own one and use it a lot, but never on Verdi (I never play Verdi).

Cheers, Pat

[Jay Bertolet]

‘I wish to insist once again on a fourth trombone. That bombardon is not possible……I would prefer a trombone-basso which is the same family as the others; but if this turns out to be too much trouble or too difficult to play, then get one of those ordinary ophicleides that go down to low B.’

I don't know, Verdi seems to be pretty clear here. Just because it took decades for the right instrument (that matches Verdi's conception) to be reliably produced seems less important to me than the fact that it may have been produced. Having played Verdi's works on both bass tubas and a cimbasso, I can confirm that there is no question about the difference. I presented a masterclass at the 2002 ITEC in Greensboro and said as much there. I even demonstrated with a trombone section (thank you North Carolina Symphony trombone section, you guys were great!) the difference in sound with 2 different bass tubas and then a cimbasso on the same Verdi excerpts. The audience seemed to get it too, when presented with a clear cut, side by side comparison. The cimbasso that we have access to today feels to me like a totally natural fit to Verdi's works where the tuba simply does not.

It seems to me that the only argument that can be plausibly made is that maybe a bass trombone would be an equally valid choice. Considering the technical duress these parts would cause, I wouldn't advise it as a viable option, though I'm sure anything is possible with a quality player. Also, people seem very hung up on the term cimbasso. Considering that nobody can provide an accurate derivation of the word, James Gourlay's writings on the matter may be exactly right. It may be that the term was copyist shorthand and simply denotes the bass instrument in the trombone section. However you wish to call it, the intent that Verdi called for is clear and that seems a worthy enough goal for anyone wishing to perform his works.

[Bob Kolada]

I've know idea why all the cylindrical contras are made in cavaliers trombone form. The Jimbasso form seems to me to be better balanced less fragile. But I feel that the only interesting question an orchestra/opera tubist and/or conducter should ask themselves is whether or not they feel that an orchestration calls for the use of a cylindrical contra or not. What it looks like is for the most part secondary, isn't it?

Fwiw, I've got an (up bell) Eb being made in the same shape. It seems the only reason to have a bent valve trombone is for it to look kinda like a trombone.

[pjv]

I think the issue is whether or not he wanted a cylindrical sound or not. Playing a tuba on a contrabass tbn is like playing a flugel on trumpet part or playing an euphonium on trombone parts.
-Pat

[pjv]

I see your point.

Composers are almost like real people; they'll take a liking to an instrument thats played well. I'm certain a well made instrument influences this.

Verdi may OR may not have taken a disliking to the tuba. Maybe he would have liked it better if he had heard better, or he'd worked with an awesome contra-bone player and that sound stuck, or maybe he even had a grudge on a tubist that'd been hitting on his wife. Whatever the reason, it seems logical that the choice was made before the piece was finished in his head. And if what he was hearing in his head was a cylindrical bass thingy, so be it. I mentioned earlier that I gotta hunch that many composers were turned off to the contra-valve-bone due to the poor quality of sound coming out of them at that time (my opinion). So the reverse could also be true about Verdi.

Now as to the dimensions of that cylindrical contra thingy, I personally would pay as much heed to that as I would playing a 4/4 tuba in Wagner 'cause thats about how big the tuba was back then (eh, wasn't it?). I'd be more interested in playing a cylindrical contra-thingy that sounds trombonish and be happy if it balances with the rest and is reasonable to play on. Many people out of the audience know nothing about a cimbasso and still have guessed that its a trombone-thingy. So if it sounds the part then you've got a winner!

Now, if I want to get real nasty; how many musicians here use a baritone/euphonium/tenor tuba to play tuba parts which we all KNOW were written for the French tuba? Or playing Eb tuba on pieces we all KNOW were written for Eb (and not BBb, CC or F). Ditto for the BBb tuba, etc, etc.

So...y'all be play'n ye F's on Debussy, ain't ye? But when the part calls for a cimbasso, suddenly we all try to get historically correct.

I'd say, if the conductor and your section agrees, go for it!

-Pat

[UDELBR]

Verdi may OR may not have taken a disliking to the tuba.

Why is it so hard to believe the composer's own words?

[Jay Bertolet]

If you really read Verdi's quote, there is a lot of information there about his likes and dislikes. For example, he specifically asks for a "trombone-basso" which suggests a cylindrical instrument. He also specifically says that a bombardon (basically, a larger and wider bore ophicleide which could sometimes have valves) is definitely not what he wants. He says he's willing to accept an "ordinary ophicleide" which is a narrower bore instrument. By comparing the construction of these three instruments, you can deduce the tendencies that Verdi was looking for. He was clearly trying to match the sound of the voices in the trombone section, rather than make the bass voice a very different timbre. This led to the eventual development of an instrument specifically designed to fill this purpose.

There also might have been some historical context in that choice. Verdi and Wagner were both composing at roughly the same time and competing for the world opera stage. Wagner visited Adolph Sax's shop and intended to use at least some of the horns he saw in his first opera of the Ring cycle, Das Rheingold. It is a logical conclusion, based on the compositional techniques employed by both Verdi and Wagner, that Verdi may have been trying to distinguish his work from Wagner with the use of a more homogenous brass sound (mostly cylindrical instruments) versus Wagner's more lush brass scoring and use of saxhorns and other more conical instruments. Both composer's brass sections sound very different and distinct. If that is really what happened, the tuba may just have been "caught in the backwash" where Verdi was concerned. Not so much a dislike as not being the sound he needed to accomplish his goals.

Either way, there can be no question that Verdi might have a completely different opinion about the tuba if he heard them today, in the hands of today's performers. Of course, the same could be said for most any composer who hasn't been around for the last 70 years or so.

[Jay Bertolet]

Thanks for posting that article, a very interesting read! I was unaware of some of the facts the writer presents (assuming they are factual, never believe everything you read) and the article puts a real face to the relationship of the two giants.

I also enjoy the good and productive exchange of ideas. That is what this forum is best equipped to deliver. I don't have to imagine life before it, I was there!

[Steve Marcus]

Using a line of thinking which may be easier to document due to its more recent availability of photos, anecdotes, etc:

Toscanini knew Verdi personally and treasured his music.

Toscanini conducted orchestras well into the 1950's (NYPO, NBC, etc.), so photos of the horn(s) that Bill Bell might have used under Toscanini's baton could be very visible. This may also serve as a historical bridge to present-day performances.

What horn did Bill Bell play in Toscanani's performance(s) of the Verdi Requiem?

[PMeuph]

Verdi may OR may not have taken a disliking to the tuba.

Why is it so hard to believe the composer's own words?

Ask yourself this, have you ever changed your mind on anything, has your opinion grown to a more nuanced position could you imagine every letter you ever wrote (destined for only one person) would be scrutinized and every detail, some of which might have be innocuous at the the time, are highlighted, studied, displayed, and utilized to present your ideas to the world. If that were the case would that be a fair representation of you? Would that be a fair representation of anyone? Is it not possible to conceived thatcertain opinions held might be more flexible than what musicologists convey them to be?

[UDELBR]

Verdi may OR may not have taken a disliking to the tuba.

Why is it so hard to believe the composer's own words?

Ask yourself this, have you ever changed your mind on anything, has your opinion grown to a more nuanced position could you imagine every letter you ever wrote (destined for only one person) would be scrutinized and every detail, some of which might have be innocuous at the the time, are highlighted, studied, displayed, and utilized to present your ideas to the world. If that were the case would that be a fair representation of you? Would that be a fair representation of anyone? Is it not possible to conceived thatcertain opinions held might be more flexible than what musicologists convey them to be?

Verdi's views on the tuba are unambiguous. Yet, without providing citations to the opposite, you use what you wrote above as justification to deface Verdi's (and Berlioz', and ...) work as you see fit, on the odd assumption that "he probably changed his mind regarding the tuba, but unfortunately left no record of that whatsoever". Again: