"cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

[ginnboonmiller]

I love that some of the people on this forum, when shown a really good ophicleide player, dismiss the whole thing on the basis that no one plays them anymore, we have better instruments, and essentially historically informed performance is silly and pointless. And then, within days, on the same forum, dismiss the whole idea of modern instruments on the basis that the composer, working 150 years earlier, never had those instruments available to play. I love that.

[imperialbari]

‘I wish to insist once again on a fourth trombone. That bombardon is not possible……I would prefer a trombone-basso which is the same family as the others; but if this turns out to be too much trouble or too difficult to play, then get one of those ordinary ophicleides that go down to low B.’

I don't know, Verdi seems to be pretty clear here. ......

Jay, I have read the same Verdi quote, which another poster tries to belittle as a personal opinion expressed of one point of time and directed towards one person only.

I don’t want doing the research again, but I trust you, Jay, to have the references to the recipient of that letter from Verdi and to the context of that letter.

As I remember it the association of Italian opera houses wanted the Italian composers to compose for a standard orchestra size, so that they neither had to hire extras nor had to let their regular musicians doing nothing during the performances of operas, where the Italian repertory was the by far most frequently played. Again as I remember it, Verdi’s letter as quoted above here, was directed to an officer of that Italian opera association who worked to get an understanding between composers and opera houses.

Klaus

[J.c. Sherman]

I love that some of the people on this forum, when shown a really good ophicleide player, dismiss the whole thing on the basis that no one plays them anymore, we have better instruments, and essentially historically informed performance is silly and pointless. And then, within days, on the same forum, dismiss the whole idea of modern instruments on the basis that the composer, working 150 years earlier, never had those instruments available to play. I love that.

+1

[J.c. Sherman]

I see your point.

Composers are almost like real people; they'll take a liking to an instrument thats played well. I'm certain a well made instrument influences this.

Verdi may OR may not have taken a disliking to the tuba. Maybe he would have liked it better if he had heard better, or he'd worked with an awesome contra-bone player and that sound stuck, or maybe he even had a grudge on a tubist that'd been hitting on his wife. Whatever the reason, it seems logical that the choice was made before the piece was finished in his head. And if what he was hearing in his head was a cylindrical bass thingy, so be it. I mentioned earlier that I gotta hunch that many composers were turned off to the contra-valve-bone due to the poor quality of sound coming out of them at that time (my opinion). So the reverse could also be true about Verdi.

Now as to the dimensions of that cylindrical contra thingy, I personally would pay as much heed to that as I would playing a 4/4 tuba in Wagner 'cause thats about how big the tuba was back then (eh, wasn't it?). I'd be more interested in playing a cylindrical contra-thingy that sounds trombonish and be happy if it balances with the rest and is reasonable to play on. Many people out of the audience know nothing about a cimbasso and still have guessed that its a trombone-thingy. So if it sounds the part then you've got a winner!

Now, if I want to get real nasty; how many musicians here use a baritone/euphonium/tenor tuba to play tuba parts which we all KNOW were written for the French tuba? Or playing Eb tuba on pieces we all KNOW were written for Eb (and not BBb, CC or F). Ditto for the BBb tuba, etc, etc.

So...y'all be play'n ye F's on Debussy, ain't ye? But when the part calls for a cimbasso, suddenly we all try to get historically correct.

I'd say, if the conductor and your section agrees, go for it!

-Pat

I do use Euphonium on French Tuba Parts.

Verdi did collaborate on a contrabass valve trombone in tuba form which he approved for the use on all his 4th brass parts. That's a pretty direct statement of support for that style instrument.

The main reason instruments in the shorter pitches are manufactured is because a slide instrument by Alexander was put into production which they labeled a "cimbasso". It actually fits the role well, but is quite a bit shorter and smaller than the italian "trombono basso" of Verdi's era.

The better clue overall for Verdi's preferences is simply in the orchestration and voicing of the parts. They are simply not tuba parts, and aren't written with the 3rd trombone or string basses in any typical manner of a tuba part.

*hears crickets... sits back down*

J.c.S.

[pjv]

Saying that one prefers a certain instrument doesn't mean one hates it. Many people prefer an electric bass over a contra in their band. They don't necessarily hate it. Its just a choice of one wants to hear.

I don't question the fact that Verdi asked for a contra trombone. I just don't sentence is enough to qualify him as a tuba hater. But maybe someones referring to an article I missed out on. The one quoted here is purely Verdi's wish to use a contra-bone and not a tuba.

The Bill Bell story may not hold water. Who knows if they ever even discussed this matter. We think its important, but most musicians really couldn't give a hoot.

-Pat

[UDELBR]

Saying that one prefers a certain instrument doesn't mean one hates it. Many people prefer an electric bass over a contra in their band. They don't necessarily hate it. Its just a choice of one wants to hear.

I don't question the fact that Verdi asked for a contra trombone. I just don't sentence is enough to qualify him as a tuba hater. But maybe someones referring to an article I missed out on. The one quoted here is purely Verdi's wish to use a contra-bone and not a tuba.

This, from here:

Genoa 24 December 1871

"... I still insist on the 4th trombone. That bombardon is impossible. Tell Faccio and, if you wish, consult the 1st trombonist as well to see what should be done. I would like a bass trombone from the same family as the others, but if it is too tiring or too difficult to play, get one of the usual ophicleides that go to low B. In other words, do whatever you want, but not that devil of a bombardon that does not blend with the others."

Hard to put much positive spin on this, eh?

[J.c. Sherman]

There's another quote from Verdi, in which he "detests" the tuba and prizes the trombono basso. I have to search for it tonight. That also has some strong evidence Also, the fact that his 4th parts would be (and are) crappy tuba scoring is very good evidence; That he worked with the firm Pelitti - who pattented a larger "bombardon" of very modern proportions under the name "Pelitone" to make something which is completely divorced from that timbre show concerted effort to avoid the instrument. Finally, an Italian convention at that time called for a standardization of the orchestras in Italy, with the inclusion of Basso Tuba, and Verdi openly flouted this convention; none of his works CALL for a tuba, either in the score or in the parts; he wasn't so ignorant that he "must've never heard a good tuba player" because that ascribes Wagner and other contemporaries as morons for USING these "bad" instruments.

It's clear. He didn't write for a tuba or anything resembling a tuba... why even attempt to rationalize using it EXCEPT to continue to play the gig (valid), in which case the modern cimbassi are made to be tubist friendly? Put the tuba down, unless you're also going to attempt to argue you should be a part of the B-minor Mass because Bach hadn't heard a good tubist and therefore you should get to play the continuo (which might sound "interesting", but certainly nothing of an idea you could sell as Bach's).

We could, you know, use something akin to what he explicitly approved of for his works... but then we wouldn't get to be super-loud tubby soloists in that texture. Crap!

J.c.S.

[Steve Marcus]

I asked the orchestra to rent a cimbasso, but they had blown the budget for such things this earlier this year when they rented a fleet of Wagner tuben...

[PMeuph]

Why is it so hard to believe the composer's own words?

Ask yourself this, have you ever changed your mind on anything, has your opinion grown to a more nuanced position could you imagine every letter you ever wrote (destined for only one person) would be scrutinized and every detail, some of which might have be innocuous at the the time, are highlighted, studied, displayed, and utilized to present your ideas to the world. If that were the case would that be a fair representation of you? Would that be a fair representation of anyone? Is it not possible to conceived that certain opinions held might be more flexible than what musicologists convey them to be?

Verdi's views on the tuba are unambiguous. Yet, without providing citations to the opposite, you use what you wrote above as justification to deface Verdi's (and Berlioz', and ...) work as you see fit, on the odd assumption that "he probably changed his mind regarding the tuba, but unfortunately left no record of that whatsoever". Again:

Where did I deface Verdi's work? Even Berlioz? (If you remember correctly I said take with a "grain of salt")

I just don't believe that every single word written by a composer is absolutely sacrosanct. The reality is that there as to be some give and take with historical accuracy. Most instruments in the orchestra have changed since Berlioz' time and since.

My comment was not specific but more of a larger general picture that could be applied to every composer.

[UDELBR]

Where did I deface Verdi's work? Even Berlioz?

You've made it clear in a number of threads that you feel the express wishes of composers need not be taken seriously, even when they made their wishes abundantly clear (as in the cases of both Verdi and Berlioz).

You can call it 'interpretation'; I call it defacement. I guess it's just semantics, eh?

[Donn]

No one could seriously argue that western classical music has religiously adhered to the wishes of its composers. On the contrary, "period instruments" some to be kind of a novelty act.

But it sounds like the Verdi analysis thing might be somewhat dodging the point. OK, maybe Verdi did hate the tuba, and who knows, perhaps this is the fault of some tuba player of his acquaintance, and it's entirely unfair and unjustified. Whatever. If true, still that does not seem to prove that he actually wrote his stuff for the tuba.

It's one thing to choose to depart from the composer's presumed intentions for whatever reasons, artistic or expedient, it's another to justify it based on faulty reasoning.

[pjv]

Gentlemen, thanks for Verdi's quotes. That was needed to get a clearer idea of Verdi's predisposition towards the tuba.

I could only find this kind of stuff;

http://music.allpurposeguru.com/2011/11 ... rerunners/" target="_blank

Look under bombardon.

As to whether or not he would have liked a cimbasso shaped tuba; who know? How cylindrical was the 19thC tuba.

Like I mentioned before, it seems reasonable that if somebody (Verdi) wrote for a cylindrical instrument then thats what he wanted to hear.

-Pat

[Bob Kolada]

Hell, if composers were so omnipotent they'd still be alive. Play what you like, be musical, and don't bitch at others doing something different (the main problem with "college trained" musicians).


Bob"cylindrical for life!"Kolada

[PMeuph]

Where did I deface Verdi's work? Even Berlioz?

You've made it clear in a number of threads that you feel the express wishes of composers need not be taken seriously, even when they made their wishes abundantly clear (as in the cases of both Verdi and Berlioz).

You can call it 'interpretation'; I call it defacement. I guess it's just semantics, eh?

If I were to rate the quality of your summary of my thoughts on the "express wishes of composers" I would give you a 75% grade. I feel you don't do justice to the precise point I tried to convey which is that the is nothing set in stone. Music is not prophecy; composers are not deities; orchestras today are not what they were 150 years ago; composer's writings are versed in politics of all sorts. (Like this forum ) I've also stated that words about music and the music itself are two different things.

For your semantics, this is what the OED says on Interpretation:

c. The representation of a part in a drama, or the rendering of a musical composition, according to one's conception of the author's idea.

There are good interpretations and bad ones.

FWIW, I have only heard this piece live once (in an orchestral setting, I shouldn't mention brass band arrangements in this context) and the Tubist played it on a 981. He sounded great.

[Jay Bertolet]

Klaus, the Verdi quote I posted (which UncleBeer gives a more complete version of) is from a letter Verdi wrote to Ricordi in 1872, just prior to the performance of Aida at La Scala. This quote and it's source is cited in James Gourlay's article entitled The Cimbasso: Perspectives on Low Brass performance practise in Verdi’s music.. The link is here:

http://www.tubaforum.it/Lists/Articoli/ ... _paper.pdf" target="_blank" target="_blank

This isn't a one time opinion that Verdi happened to write down and is now being scrutinized. If you examine this quote, with his scoring techniques, and then factor in that he helped develop an instrument (as Mr. Sherman pointed out) specifically designed to accomplish the goals stated in this quote, the evidence simply becomes overwhelming. Verdi did not care to use the tuba in his music. Neither do a lot of composers. I only pointed out that Verdi might feel differently about it upon hearing today's performers because today's performers are so incredible. When I listen to what performers today are doing, it is truly awesome. Whenever someone doubts that players are, with every successive generation, continuing to improve, I always cite this example:

In the mid 1970s, the New York Philharmonic had an audition for tuba. They had more applicants apply than they could listen to. They had to limit the number of applicants so they added the Kraft Encounters II to the first round of the audition. One half of the applicants dropped out. Today, if you want to audition for the Indiana University School of Music as a masters level student, the Kraft is a recommended choice as a solo piece. This is a time span of just under 40 years. Verdi died in 1901. Imagine how tuba playing has changed in over 100 years.

It is interesting discussing historical approaches to performances. Honoring the composer's intentions and wishes can be very difficult to do. As a performer myself, I always strive to extract as much of the composer's intent out of the music as possible. For me, it's kind of like a validation of sorts. Without the credibility that I have done my research and know, as best as I can, what the composer was trying to achieve, I feel like my performance has a contrived element to it. I have no problems with artists that take more liberties but for me, I prefer the security of knowing that the composer was not forgotten in my performances. If, as an orchestral player, I will take pot shots at conductors who make all kinds of contrived garbage in their interpretations of pieces (usually in a feeble attempt to put their "mark" on the work), I'll be damned if I'll be a hypocrite and not practice what I preach. These composers spend very long hours (mostly) making art. As a performer, I take a lot of pride in honoring that work and reflecting it in my own performances.

When are the music schools in this country going to start offering a course entitled something like "The Synthesis of All Musical Knowledge into Performance Practice"? There are so many great teachers out there teaching Music History, Music Theory, and all the other requisite courses that comprise a music degree. How is it that so few of the students taking those courses ever figure out that applying all that knowledge to the specific performing you do is exactly the intent. Ah, but I digress....

[imperialbari]

Thanks, Jay! I obviously don’t disagree with you.

Even found the Gourlay text on my own disk.

I remember the circa 1970 head of our main conservatory telling in the news that their teaching basically was about performance practice.

Klaus

PS:

viewtopic.php?p=412339#p412339

[UDELBR]

I only pointed out that Verdi might feel differently about it upon hearing today's performers because today's performers are so incredible.

Verdi's objections to the tuba weren't borne of lack of players' quality, but of his observation that the instrument didn't blend with the trombones. While virtuosic players may potentially be more sensitive, this doesn't change the fact that a tuba remains a tuba, even 140 years later. It doesn't sound like a trombone, nor should it.

[eupher61]

http://www.saxquest.com/images/gallery/ ... mbone1.JPG" target="_blank" target="_blank

well, I tried. Just go to http://www.saxquest.com/gallery.asp" target="_blank and search in the dropdown for the Adolphe Sax Trombone.

[Jay Bertolet]

Verdi's objections to the tuba weren't borne of lack of players' quality, but of his observation that the instrument didn't blend with the trombones. While virtuosic players may potentially be more sensitive, this doesn't change the fact that a tuba remains a tuba, even 140 years later. It doesn't sound like a trombone, nor should it.

Agreed! If anything, tubas sound less cylindrical than they did 100 years ago. I'm only suggesting that it is possible he might find another use for the tuba in light of the new capabilities of the players. Considering the proclivity he had for cylindrical brass and the distinction he might have been trying to achieve for his work compared to Wagner, today's tuba player and sound change none of that. I'm only speculating about what might be possible and that speculation should be taken for what it's worth. Since it's unlikely Verdi will be walking this earth anytime soon, we'll never know so the point is moot.

[Lingon]

Nice instrument, saxobone or?! It looks more like a cavalry trombone. While I do not know how an opera valved bass trombone instrument looked back in old Italy I do not think it was like this one. But to use a tuba, even if the player is world class, for Verdi I think is almost worse than or at least equal with using a big bass trombone for the last trombone part when playing the Glenn Miller repertoire. However they both happens all the time...