Review of Gemeinhardt Production CC and BBb piston tubas

[Timswisstuba]

I trust Don Harry's opinion. He knows what is good. As I am In Switzerland, I wish I could try thèse Gemeinhardt tubas.

[Wyvern]

It has been interesting watching this thread with as usual some people trying to rubbish the Gemeinhardt tubas for no other reason than because they are made in China. I do share some's legitimate concerns that they may be at a too expensive price point, but you have got to realise that to just tool up to produce a new, so called 'clone' is quite expensive - to develop whole new models is very expensive - so understandably Germeinhardt have got to get their money back somehow. In other words the selling price is as much R&D costs as production costs. If Germeinhardt have got their sums right, only time and consumer response will tell. Looking at how well the iPad sells, most of the population are more interested in the actual product, than where it is made. I don't know why tubas should be any different?

Regarding the screw on the valves of some Chinese tubas being sometimes difficult to thread is a valid point, although not confined to Chinese made ones - I have come across Besson just the same. My experience checking the valves of all Wessex tubas before I sell is that 3 out of 4 valves are no problem, but there are those which can be difficult to put on initially. However what I have found is that after replacing several times they do get increasingly easy as if the thread memory gets more embedded. But this is definitely an area for improvement and I am talking to the factories.

For some repair men not touching Chinese tubas is rather laughable. I have had a few very badly damaged in shipping, but my local repair man has had no problems rolling out the dents just like any other tuba - in fact the silver-plated ones damage is often almost invisible once repaired. He also fixes the usual problems of sticking valves and stuck slides without any problems different from any other produced tubas. Maybe the final finish on Chinese made tubas is not always quite as refined as British/German/American made instruments, but they are put together exactly the same as I understand.

[Kory101]

People are stupid.

I can't tell you how many people I know who say "well, I play this brand and it's the best. Nothing comes close to it."

No matter who you talk to, whatever tuba THEY play is the BEST.

I play equipment that I sound my best on. If that's a $12,000 B&S or a $1,600 Jin Bao or a $6,000 Gemeinhardt, so be it. I'm not going to come on this forum and bash a maker because of where it's made or if there are "tuning issues." Find me a tuba without intonation quirks and sign me up! That's why those slides move, people.

Seriously.

-KM

[bradp]

People are stupid.

I can't tell you how many people I know who say "well, I play this brand and it's the best. Nothing comes close to it."

No matter who you talk to, whatever tuba THEY play is the BEST.

I play equipment that I sound my best on. If that's a $12,000 B&S or a $1,600 Jin Bao or a $6,000 Gemeinhardt, so be it. I'm not going to come on this forum and bash a maker because of where it's made or if there are "tuning issues." Find me a tuba without intonation quirks and sign me up! That's why those slides move, people.

Seriously.

-KM

Amen Brother!!

[Dan Schultz]

..... However what I have found is that after replacing several times they do get increasingly easy as if the thread memory gets more embedded. But this is definitely an area for improvement and I am talking to the factories.....

Jonathan.... it's called "getting rid of the burrs". There's A LOT that can be improved just by taking a new horn apart and removing all the burrs and buffing grit.

It happens even with 'high-end' horns.

[bort]

Looking at how well the iPad sells, most of the population are more interested in the actual product, than where it is made. I don't know why tubas should be any different?

Well, even Tim Cook has publicly stated he wants more Apple stuff to be made in America. (Really though, I'm just being silly at this point, not trying to start an argument.)

For me, it is very important where things are made. I don't expect it to be as important to everyone else.

[eupher61]

I just got an email from Dick Barth....July 10 works for him. I would like to invite everyone to join me at his shop that day to play test, compare, contrast, and otherwise try the Gemeinhardt tubas in the presence of as many tubsits as possible. I'll be driving from St Louis if anyone wants to ride along and pitch in on gas. I can take 3 people, but horns might be tight with 4 in my wagon. We can work it out.
Let's get this going! It's 4.5 hours or more for me, there is little excuse for anyone in the upper Midwest US....
Reply in this thread....unless I start a new one later...
Steve Hoog

OK....how about we have a Tuba gangbang at Dick Barth's place in Elkhart?

How about July 10, as many of us as can go there and play every stinkin' tuba he has in stock. Yeah, we'll have to take turns, but we can prevent each other from playing The Ride or Bydlo more than once. (Frankly, playing The Ride on a BBb 6/4 is pretty cool, as is Bydlo on a French C tuba...)

Someone coming from Wisconsin, bring me a case of Sprecher Black Bavarian, a case of their Root Beer, and a case of their Orange Dream.

I'll email Dick and see if he'll be there that day. Would suck if he wasn't....

[bisontuba]

Dale-
For the very last time, I do not work for Gemeinhardt or get anything from them. I pay full street price like everyone else--period (Would you like to see my cancelled check, Dale?). And, for the very last time, I recommend to folks to go try the horns themselves. It is Summer, and Elkhart is right off the Interstate.
I wrote a review on what I played last week-period. I own one of these horns, and as with the first one, I will be paying full street price on the newly ordered horn too.
Is that hard for you to understand
You are one angry person--I really feel sad for you....I really do. I don't take anything personally, but everyone else you continually bash on this forum might. If you need to take out your anger, just blast me, but leave others out of it---this is Tubenet, not the WWE.....

Mark

[turo]

186ish/Schillbrunner/1291ish/...- copy, they are what they are
Gemeinhardt tubas- supposedly original design, cheaper labor than other big tuba companies

I can see how the Gemeinhardts would list for more; deservedly or not (kinda reminds me of all those Cali morons who "build" tall IFS truck lifts completely on a computer; most anyone can "do" most anything on just a computer!).

Mark, FWIW, I can't help but remember how much you lauded the Jin Bao F. Mine turned out to be a garbage horn- shitty tuning, shitty response, shitty low range. I like you but, as everyone should do with everyone else, am taking your opinions of tubas with a grain of salt now. That horn really sucked!

Also, I must correct myself from earlier. I've played the --Brazilian Nirschl-- tubas a few times. Those remind me of the 3301's. I've only played the Gemeinhardts once, at the past Midwest. I played the Eb, F, and -maybe- the Bb. I did not play the C. I do remember Mr. Barth telling me two years in a row (after seeing me play the W. Nirschl Bb)- "You sound good on that; you should buy it!" I pointed that out the second time.

Brazilian Nirschl are back in production after an agreement between Walter Nirschl and Arthur and Roberto Weingrill from Weril. The brand name of these instruments is WEINGRILL & NIRSCHL. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 47&sk=wall" target="_blank" target="_blank
These instruments, mainly Tubas, were introduced last week in the IV International Brass Meeting in TatuÍ, São Paulo state, Brazil. Some of them are going to be presented in ITEC, including a new F Tuba.

[bort]

Nirschl is still in Brazil? Interesting! So there are German (maybe?), Brazilian, and Chinese-made Nirschl horns? Confusing!

[bort]

Tubas frequently remind me of cars.

Chinese tubas remind me of Hyundai's. When they first came out, they were cheap and not very good. But they were cheap so lots of people bought them. Then they got better, and were a little less cheap. Then better still, and again a little more expensive. Now, they are actually quite good cars, with a wide range of models (probably from $15k to $60k...can you believe the top end *Hyundai* costs $60k?). Sounds a bit like the 4x price difference between Jin Bao and Gemeinhardt, huh? And it also makes no sense to just lump both into "Korean cars," since the bottom and top end are both so different.

But also like cars, I think people would be a bit less thrilled to buy a BMW if it were made in China and then shipped here.

[turo]

Nirschl is still in Brazil? Interesting! So there are German (maybe?), Brazilian, and Chinese-made Nirschl horns? Confusing!

As far as I know, there are German ( Meister Walter Nirschl ) and Brazilian ( Weingrill & Nirschl ). The Chinese horns are Gemeinhardt and Walter is not involved in this project.

[eupher61]

Anyone who wants to join me (and probably my nephew) on July 10 for a massed Gemeinhardt bash is more than welcome. I"m planning to be there as much of the day as Dick will allow.

steve

[bort]

Yes, I know some of them are made in the US. I was careful to say "made in China" and not "not made in Germany."

Regarding Miraphone, that doesn't sound *too* unusual...here in the US, you only have to provide the origin if it's NOT made in the US. Companies frequently like to point out that things are made in the US, so they do this... but it's not a requirement. But to me, anything is better than reading a whole explanation like "Designed in ___, made in ___." It's made where it's made!

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I see someone else has tried out the production lacquer CC 4 piston Gemeinhardt tuba...FYI...mark



More pics added at: http://www.barthsbrassblog.com" target="_blank and click on the top of the right side....

[k001k47]

The F back at TMEA wasn't my cup of tea, but I'm really digging that CC! Anyone know if one will be in TX any time soon?

[Wyvern]

I am talking with Richard about possibly getting a Gemeinhardt demonstrator here in the UK. If you live this side of the pond and are seriously interested, let me know with what key of tuba - that may help determine what I get over (e.g. If most people interested in CC, then that will be priority)

Incidentally on asking about the cost, although they are made in China, it is apparently done using German tooling and are original American designs.

[bort]

The problem is that "made in China" means a lot of different things. There's the China that we see and the China we don't see. There are factories with poor conditions, cheap and poor quality products, corruption and all the "perks" of a communist government. There are also super-modern cities, high-end products, and high quality materials made in good "Western" conditions. It depends where you are, and who you are.

China is also a HUGE mystery to Americans. I doubt many Americans can name more than 2 or 3 Chinese cities...which means they are NOT able to name over 100 cities with more than a million people each. That's a LOT to not know!

But overall in the US, saying "China" usually brings about the bad stuff, to a degree that can be overlooked if the price is right. I don't agree with that, but that's the reality I've seen. It'll take some time and a whole lot of effort to get past that. Even if the quality is good (or great), the hard part is constantly qualifying it as great, not just "great for being made in China." And if that doesn't take hold, people won't want to pay as much money for them as a German horn. And no matter how good the tuba is, it's only worth as much as someone will pay for it.

[eupher61]

Anyone who wants to join me (and probably my nephew) on July 10 for a massed Gemeinhardt bash is more than welcome. I"m planning to be there as much of the day as Dick will allow.

steve

July 10 is not going to work for me...it's become a PITA day. ouch.. I'm hoping to reschedule for later in July or early August.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Updated news on the arrival times on the production horns-FYI-
Mark

http://www.barthsbrassblog.com" target="_blank