Unusual? saxhorn, small

[Lingon]

Maybe this is not the right board to post this ebay listing but because of the recent discussions about keyed and valved instruments I wonder does an instrument like this exist or has it existed? If so, how does/did it work?

[kathott]

Look more closely, that is an espresso maker.
They are made in the Balkans, small and inexpensive.

[J.c. Sherman]

Maybe this is not the right board to post this ebay listing but because of the recent discussions about keyed and valved instruments I wonder does an instrument like this exist or has it existed? If so, how does/did it work?

Yes.

That is an instrument featured in "Musical Instruments in Art and History" (that's the picture from the book, I think!). It's an Eb soprano saxhorn (I beleive by Adolphe Sax - I'll check at home) with three ascending semitone keys. It was designed to combine the best attributes of the valved and keyed instrument. Sax didn't make many of these; while not unsuccessful at their goal, the keys of course proved unnecessary and - like the cornets/cornopeans of the period also with keys - were soon discontinued.

[J.c. Sherman]

cimocleide - acceptable for use on ALL Verdi works.

Okay, that made me laugh out loud...

[imperialbari]

Tarpoo OTS tuba.jpg

[Lingon]

Thanks for the comments. Interesting with the combination of both valves and keys which open up for using a bass sax as starting point for some hybrid ophicleides.

The Tarpoo seems to be a really useful instrumen in todays context as it is really large bore like what is used in many orchestras today. Anyone knows if the intonation is good?

Btw, there was another cute saxhorn on eBay. Maybe not as fourth part in a Verdi opera but certainly useful for other stuff. High pitch F with concert A=420...?!

[imperialbari]

I haven’t seen the addition of multiple keys on valved brasses before. But at some point of time, probably after 1999, I have seen pages from a French catalogue from Adolphe sax’s era, where bell-up alto and tenor conical brasses had one quite large key/vent just below the bell throat. The purpose was said to be pitch corrections of the 5th partial notes.

The original saxophone family came in two pitch classes. C & F for orchestral purposes. Bb & Eb for band purposes.

The original Eb & Bb Saxhorn family had the small Eb as its soprano, but I haven’t heard of French made F soprano Saxhorns until that eBay sample.

Klaus

[Lingon]

The seller said that it plays in high F tuned to A=420. Was there some tuning like that in France? Or, could it be an Eb horn Hi Pitch? Or maybe a modified one? Seller did not know.

[imperialbari]

Don’t remember hearing of a pitch of A=420Hz. There is the fake modern baroque pitch of A=415Hz more based on this being a semitone lower than A=440Hz than on historical instruments. The pitch of the Vienna classic and romantic eras in some places were A=430Hz. Historical brasses of that pitch have been found. Replica natural horn often have the options of being played in 430 and in 440.

British high pitch still found in the Highland bagpipes was A=457Hz. Bohemian military high pitch until 1920 was A=466Hz, which is a semitone higher than A=440Hz.

An F instrument in A=420Hz equals an Eb instrument in A=471,4Hz. Never heard about that pitch.

Klaus

[J.c. Sherman]

The single clapper key on saxhorns and cornopeans was mostly for trills, but it did give tuning options.

My wager is that's an Eb H.P. instrument (eBay) and that the thing leaks like a sieve!!

[Lingon]

Now when we are at it, where does this 'Saxomnitonique' instrument, which seems to be in need of some slight attention, fit in the historic puzzle?

[J.c. Sherman]

Brilliant, but flawed; more than one ascending valve makes the other valves useless, as they are then too long. It also adds cylindrical tubing which is more often than not engaged, making the tone less consistent. It's interesting that this uses two types of valves, 6 port and 4 port. It's an experimental instrument... it never caught on in any real sense; but the French did adopt an ascending 3rd valve on their horns for some time.

[Lingon]

I understand that it is an experimental instrument, but I do not understand how adding tube could make the pitch go up if that is what an ascending valve does?! However the experimentation at that period seems to be more 'fun' than what is done nowadays, with some exceptions of course

[J.c. Sherman]

Pressing an ascending valve removes tubing, thus raising the pitch.

[Lingon]

I thought so but I might have misinterpreted what you replied earlier: "It also adds cylindrical tubing which is more often than not engaged, making the tone less consistent."

Just so I understand, is it something like the small Yamaha trombone in C with the Bb valve that is constantly engaged so the instrument is in Bb when you play without pressing the button?

[J.c. Sherman]

Indeed, that is also an ascending valve

When you don't activate those valves, of course, that means the tubing is being used, and it's cylindrical