"cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

[J.c. Sherman]

Well summarized, LJV! My study/decision is historically based, but my instrument is designed to work exactly as you suggest - Homogeneous!

J.c.S.

[MartyNeilan]

While we have somewhat come to a consensus about Verdi and Puccini, what about Respighi?
(subject for another thread...)

[pjv]

Ok, for your fishing hobby

From your tech perspective; which cimbasso/contrabass valve trombones do retain a 1/3 conical, 2/3 cylidrical ratio?

-Pat

[J.c. Sherman]

It's an interesting question; for that matter how many trombones and bass trombones meet those criteria? For instance, my last bass trombone had an extra-long leadpipe (tapered), a dual bore (arguably "stepped conical"), extra-long gooseneck (the slide was on the short side and the valves dependant), and a continuously tapered tuning slide assembly. Not a great deal of cylindrical tubing there. But it sounded like a trombone... cylindrical.

Maybe (sorry bloke) if we look at it from a historical perspective, we can see that our contemporary instruments are derived from instruments which did have those ratios... or better. A trombone until the late 19th century had no leadpipe, and many before the mid 19th century had no taper at all before the actual bell pipe. Trumpets were much longer and followed that same profile (many of which were longer than an alto trombone). BUT... our contemporary instruments are meant to cary their character... their basic sound... to somewhat higher dynamics with a mezzo-forte timbre (no "brassiness") and to make the those instruments easier for the players to perform on with that new bore profile (leadpipes).

Hell, most horns now have less conical tubing than they did, and most trumpets are damn near conical throughout - some like Couturier experimented with fully conical "trumpets", and some reversed tuning slide trumpets are almost completely tapered as well.

SO... we have fleets of brass instruments trying to sound like their mild mannered ancestors, while removing the character they gained at higher dynamics... and using tapered tubing to control them and try to harken back to their roots as they become decibel monkeys.

I don’t, however, need to mention the only fully conical brasses... the keyed bugles and ophicleides... it's one reason they are - in my view - irreplaceable.

Tubas at their initial construction may seem more conical - short tuning slides, long gentle tapers, but (and having just done some fun hands on research) they sometimes had a higher proportion of cylindrical tubing than their contemporary offspring.... making our new tubas more... ophicleide like?

Basically, the ratios cited are more in line with historical antecedents than contemporary instruments.

J.c.S. (well get you your hits, bloke!)

[J.c. Sherman]

And speaking of cimbassi...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUYrPTZyMKo" target="_blank

Really fascinating (and validating)... totally hand made - this is what that word means!

[Donn]

Not a great deal of cylindrical tubing there. But it sounded like a trombone... cylindrical.

This distinction is even more significant in the reed woodwinds, where it makes a huge difference between the clarinet and saxophone families, to the extent that the clarinet 2nd register produces different notes than the saxophone's. But clarinet bores commonly do have tapers here and there. The point is not how much of it is strictly cylindrical, but rather whether it is conical in a way that would make it a saxophone.

[MartyNeilan]

I really like the tone of Alessandro Fossi on cimbasso. Too many recordings of cimbasso on YouTube and elsewhere sound so "vanilla" but he has more color to his sound, with just a touch of "edge" at times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TFJS0Qd ... re=related

[tbn.al]

I am certainly glad I am not on the opposite end of this wager from you Joe. I suspect you will get to 5000.

[J.c. Sherman]

I really like the tone of Alessandro Fossi on cimbasso. Too many recordings of cimbasso on YouTube and elsewhere sound so "vanilla" but he has more color to his sound, with just a touch of "edge" at times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TFJS0Qd ... re=related

Excellent playing, but a little on the tuba-timbre side for my tastes. To each their own.

[sloan]

New TN pricing policy: the originator of any thread must make a contribution to the general
operating fund for every reply to his troll.

[UDELBR]

Excellent playing, but a little on the tuba-timbre side for my tastes.

Yep. +1

[pjv]

OK, I once read that the 62H comes pretty close to the 2/3 conical ratio (not being able to measure, maybe this is only in 7th position with both valves engaged). But anyway;

IMHO there's nothing wrong with playing a small bore front-bell tuba on a stick. Quite handy actually, but its not exactly what many players (myself included) would want to hear on cimbasso parts.

So which instrument makers are making an instrument worthy of owning up to the cimbasso position, giving it that real cylindrical contrabass trombone sound?

-5001

[J.c. Sherman]

The Haag, Laetsch (sp?) and Theins are all well thought of. I've heard some good Rudy Fs. The Kailson F works but is a little tuby... plays easily though. There are others which are of good proportions, but there ain't a lot of places to try 'em out here in the USA.

Most others are a little on the garganuan side for me. YMMV.

J.c.S.

[UDELBR]

The Haag, Laetsch (sp?) and Theins are all well thought of.

Side comment: I've seen some absolutely dreadful work come out of the Thein shop. Considering their prices, that's absurd.

[toobagrowl]

I really like the tone of Alessandro Fossi on cimbasso. Too many recordings of cimbasso on YouTube and elsewhere sound so "vanilla" but he has more color to his sound, with just a touch of "edge" at times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TFJS0Qd ... re=related

Excellent playing, but a little on the tuba-timbre side for my tastes. To each their own.

Gonna have to agree with Marty on this one. I like Fossi's 70% bass bone/30% tuba cimbasso sound compared to the 85-90% bass bone/10-15% tuba "vanilla" cimbasso sound from many other examples on YT. Honestly, what is the point in using a cimbasso if it sounds 90% like a bass trombone? Think about it. There needs to be more of a difference...

[tbn.al]

As with bass trombone, I'll bet I could make them all sound like a chainsaw. Not that I would want to, but I could. BTW congrats on 5000 Joe.

[mbeastep]

I asked this question quite a few months ago and never got a response from anyone...

Conn labeled this a "tuba", and I would - as well - label it a "tuba". I own one (except shortened to F, and with four pistons...a bit rare for this model, but I digress).



The bell diameter is 14" and shrinks inward quite quickly. The bore size is a scant 5/8".

Would Verdi have "loved" or "despised" it, and why ? Does the bell point the wrong direction ? Is the flair a couple of inches too large to qualify as a "brass bass" ? Would Verdi have liked it were it built at a 90 degree angle to itself ?

Would Verdi have liked it (rather than despised it) were it shaped somewhat like this...??

Conn 2J Eb 1920's.jpg

Good point. In the environment of an opera pit, the direction of the bell makes a huge difference in the blend and balance of a section. One of the things I generally like about playing tuba in the pit is the rare experience of having an acoustical advantage over the rest of the brass. I have to admit that this might not always be seen as a musical bonus in the audience except by my closest friends and relatives.

mbeastep

[J.c. Sherman]

A "cimbasso" is not a tuba, and shouldn't sound like one; it's a trombone, and should sound like one.

J.c.S. (shall we work for 6K?)

[toobagrowl]

A "cimbasso" is not a tuba, and shouldn't sound like one; it's a trombone, and should sound like one.

J.c.S. (shall we work for 6K?)

And it will never sound like one - even with a tuba player using a tuba mpc using a "tuba sound concept" - it's just far too cylindrical. Again: what's the point in sounding 90% like a bass bone when the bass bone is already there?

[tbn.al]

[quote="toobaAgain: what's the point in sounding 90% like a bass bone when the bass bone is already there?[/quote]

Me thinks that is precisely the point!