Cerveny tubas?

[Bob Bigalard]

I went to hornguys and they said that cerveny tubas are not of very good quality and you should spend an extra $1,000 on a Miraphone. What are you guys's opinions?

[swillafew]

If you can afford to buy a Miraphone from them, you will get a fine horn from a dealer that does a great job. If not, a used horn should be a top consideration, and that will allow you to consider other good brands, as well as Cerveny.

[bort]

I think the point is that the cost of Cerveny is approaching the cost of Miraphone, although the quality of the tubas is still different. Cerveny is very good, but Miraphone is great. That's all.

[fireatwil]

I had a CC 686 5MR (Cerveny) a while back and played it for about 5 years. It was a great horn.

Before switching to the Cerveny I played a Miraphone 186 (BBb). My Cerveny was hands down a much better horn for me. The intonation was rock solid, and it had a very warm and clear sound. I bought the Cerveny used but it was in very new condition. I would still be playing the Cerveny today, but I wanted a more compact horn with piston valves.

I can't tell you how many times people (including tuba players) commented on the sound of the horn (Cerveny). It had a great sound, and worked very well for quintet and even large groups.

My only complaint about the horn was that I had to handle the horn with care. The brass seemed very soft and would dent quite easily. So I would not recommend it for young students.

I have heard people say that the quality of the Cerveny horns was inconsistent. As for that I have no experience. But I think that could apply to a lot of brands of horns.

Anyway I couldn't have been happier with my choice. And the horn served me well for the years that I played it.

[eupher61]

It all depends on what Cerveny and what Miraphone. A good Cerveny is as good as a good Miraphone is as good as a good Hirsbrunner as Rudy Meinl as Willson as Kanstul ad nauseum.

I'm somewhat shocked that Hornguys would say that. There are so many variables, maybe they had a specific reason for it. Were you asking about a specific Miraphone and a specific Cerveny, or was it a generalization?

Play every tuba you can, disregarding brand name and price. You may find a gem that costs $1,000 less than the Cerveny. You may find a total dog that costs twice the Miraphone.

steve

[Donn]

My Miraphone wasn't all that great. It was kind of an exception - the old Bb 190 - but it isn't like their tubas all come from heaven. There are people standing in line to get a chance to buy a Cerveny "piggy", so their tubas don't all come from hell. Didn't they more or less invent the modern rotary valve, by the way?

[IkeH]

I traded "down" from a 3/4 Rudy to an older Piggy a few years back, needing cash for a new bass bow, and it turned out to be one of the best moves ever. It's so easy to play, with a dark, punchy tone. I had to take it to Lee Stofer's(in Atlanta) shop for some fixes, but it was well worth it. I've been through about all the rotary Miraphones, but for me, I like the lightness, and deceptively smaller design of the pig, plus they're cheap. Find a good one, though, because they're not all gems.

Ike

[Paul Scott]

I would never buy a Cerveny without a play-test while I've found most (nearly all) Miraphones seem to be consistently great. In my own experience, the variation between individual Cervenys has been huge, varying from horrid to good and occasionally great. Specifically, intonation seems to vary greatly in Cerveny tubas.

[Tubaman2365]

I would still be playing the Cerveny today, but I wanted a more compact horn with piston valves.

A piston valve piggy would be intriguing indeed!

[PaulTkachenko]

Good tubas, but dent magnets in my opinion.

They are right though, Miraphones are generally better these days.

[Bob Bigalard]

I went to hornguys and they said that cerveny tubas are not of very good quality and you should spend an extra $1,000 on a Miraphone. What are you guys's opinions?

Not to bad-mouth the HornGuys, as they are fantastic to deal with, but as they don't carry (or don't list on their website) Cerveny tubas, but do list Miraphone... can you see where I'm going with this?

I'd see if you could find a Cerveny in the area to play side-by-side with a Miraphone or even just play a bunch of different tubas to see which one has the SOUND you're after.

Yes, they did say that a used cerveny CCB681-5PRX they had was an exellent choice for me.

[jon112780]

In my experience, when comparing Mirafone and Cerveny tubas, Mirafone tubas are consistantly better in quality, playability, resale value, and resisting dents; however they do cost more.

Cerveny does however have an "interesting" option when it comes to the 5th valve length; it's different for nearly every horn they make. There are 5th valves with a 1/2 step, 3/4 step, flat whole step, and sharp 2+3. You don't get to pick which 5th valve length you want; on whatever horn you buy, it comes with the pre-set valve length. In this case, I think having a different length for each 5th valve is a drawback when buying and reselling. Another option is the 5th valve right thumb setup is only available on one of their CC's. When I sold my Cerveny, I had to switch the 5th valve trigger from left hand to right thumb and swap in new slides at the flat whole step length before anybody was even interested in it (I guess "the market" knows what it wants). But I suppose that's understandable. My main horn is a compensating Eb, but I've owned several 5v CC's, and I'm used to the flat whole step; I probably wouldn't seriously consider a CC that had a 3/4 step 5th valve (what would I do with a 3/4 step 5th valve?).

Another odd thing I've noticed:

Most of the used 186's and 188's for sale (CC and BBb) are solid 4/4 sized tubas; with the exception of the occasional 184 or rare 190 that pops up.

But with Cerveny it's the reverse...

Most of the used Cerveny tubas for sale (CC and BBb) are either on the smaller end of the 4/4 scale (maybe LARGE 3/4 horns), or are the bigger 5/4 horns.

It seems like (between Mirafone and Cerveny only), that Mirafone has the 4/4 niche solidly locked up, and Cerveny has the 'outer edges' of the 4/4 size spoken for (5/4 and small 4/4). Whether this is due to marketing, number of horns made, target buyers, etc, I couldn't say.

[Bob Bigalard]

Thanks for the help, I am getting a used Miraphone 186 5v CC tuba that is cheaper than the Cervenys.

[MartyNeilan]

Cerveny is usually made from thinner metal. They are great horns for someone older and responsible. They do not hold up as well in typical middle school or high school environment. Their quality also tends to not be quite as consistent as other brands, but the good ones are very good.

[sloan]

Yes, they did say that a used cerveny CCB681-5PRX they had was an exellent choice for me.

The one in stock is *always* the perfect fit for your needs.

[Roger Lewis]

I wouldn't knock the Cervenys. They started building a rotary valve tuba sometime around 1820 or 1830 and they have stood the test of time. Miraphone went into business in the mid 1940's and I would think, having spent a great deal of time staring at the valve sections on both horns from behind, that the 186 may have been strongly influenced by the Cerveny 686 model. Miraphone went on to improve on the design over time and continued to grow with it, but they were quite similar in the beginning.

Yes Cerveny uses a thinner metal and this can be a problem, but I feel this is what gives them a very characteristic and unique sound. The Cerveny tubas have more "color" in the sound, added by all the overtones that are present. In an older article I found, even Roger Bobo said not to overlook these instruments because of the beautiful sound that they had. I would agree.

Just my observations.

Roger

[muttenstrudel]

Cerveny does however have an "interesting" option when it comes to the 5th valve length; it's different for nearly every horn they make. There are 5th valves with a 1/2 step, 3/4 step, flat whole step, and sharp 2+3. You don't get to pick which 5th valve length you want; on whatever horn you buy, it comes with the pre-set valve length. In this case, I think having a different length for each 5th valve is a drawback when buying and reselling.

I bought a Cerveny CC three years ago. It came with a 3/4 step 5th valve which I didn't like too much. It took me an three e-mail conversation with a very friendly German speaking employee of Cerveny (Amati Denak), three minutes to take the measurements of the inner and outer slides, two weaks of patience and 70 Euros to get an flat whole setps slide, freshly made by the the factory.

[Tom Coffey]

Many of us have relied on Cerveny Piggys as our main gig horns for many years. I have not played any new ones, but mine (mid 70s vintage) is a great horn. Very versatile, very colorful, capable of a lot of sound, probably because of the big bore. I think Miraphone tubas are fine horns, too. I noticed, to my surprise, that the reputation of the Piggy improved as the prices climbed.

[Rick Denney]

Cerveny suffered profoundly, in business terms, from central Communist economic control, but they still sold them because it was one of few sources of hard western currency. It was a storied name that fell on hard times. Now that Prague is no longer under the Soviet yoke, they have tried to move back up market where they would have stayed had WWII turned out differently for Czecho. That put them about 50 years behind their competition, both in terms of product development and in terms of marketing, so they have some catching up to do.

I bought one in 1984. Decent tuba, but soft. I traded it (plus other stuff) for a beat-up Miraphone, which I then had overhauled. The Miraphone was better, but not that much better. Now, that Miraphone is the one that is old-fashioned. Time marches on.

Rick "who has rarely owned new instruments, but generally preferred the older ones" Denney

[sailn2ba]

I've been laying back on this one, because I had an emotional response when it came up. I have a Mira 185, an Amati (Cerveny) 681, and a Cerveny 686 5RV. . . all good horns. . . . .But! the Cerv 686 is absolutely awesome for sound and intonation. I've been complemented by MW & Mira players beside me on the sound of this horn.
There is probably some variation. . . You really need to play any horn you buy.
Uhmm, and the Cerv IS a dent magnet.