Eb tuba intonation issues

[Karituba]

I have a Conn 16j 3 valve Eb tuba. it is mostly in tune; however the D, Db, and C below the staff are 40 cents flat. I have switched from a pt-42 mouthpiece to a Roger Bobo Solo mouthpiece and can lip the pitch up about 5 more cents.

Is there anything I can do to improve those notes? The first valve slide is where it needs to be to play everything else first valve in tune and the second valve slide is pushed in all the way. All other notes are within 10 cents of being in tune.

the instrument is new to me and I'm looking into getting it properly cleaned at my favorite repair shop. It is used outside only( I play a lot of summer gigs) and I love the way I can sound wicked loud.

[iiipopes]

One of bloke's mouthpieces with its different backbore will also raise the pitch.

[GC]

Horns of this type that are flat in that area also usually have a very flat Eb just above the D. If that's so, the problem may be with a leak or the bracing. Leaks (or leaky, worn valve sets) are a common issue on older horns that are reasonably in tune except for a flat second (and probably fifth) partial. It shows up a lot in old baritones, too.

Speculation: I recently got my 1914 Conn Monster Eb back from a valve job by Lee Stofer. Lee had another horn of this type in for work that was only a few serial numbers different from mine, and it played less well than mine. He put my horn side-by-side with the other one and looked at the bracing. After putting the braces on the other horn in the same places as mine and removing one superfluous one, the other horn suddenly played much better.

We now know that proper placement of braces can make a huge difference in how a horn responds and intonates. It's a major issue in new model design. I'm really wondering if the inconsistent placement of braces on the old Conn Monsters has ruined the intonation and response of horns that would otherwise be perfectly good instruments. Many of the old Monsters have wonky low B-Bb-A zones, but this may be a cure (or at least an improvement). After the valve job, my horn plays just fine down there, and after the change in bracing, the other horn improved.

[Bob Kolada]

Do you also have a flat fifth partial and a sharp fourth partial?

[MartyNeilan]

We now know that proper placement of braces can make a huge difference in how a horn responds and intonates. It's a major issue in new model design. I'm really wondering if the inconsistent placement of braces on the old Conn Monsters has ruined the intonation and response of horns that would otherwise be perfectly good instruments. Many of the old Monsters have wonky low B-Bb-A zones, but this may be a cure (or at least an improvement). After the valve job, my horn plays just fine down there, and after the change in bracing, the other horn improved.

Bracing can affect response. I have seen this myself in direct A/B comparisons, usually where an unbraced loop vibrates sympathetically. I can not see how bracing can possibly affect intonation. Pitch is a result of the vibrating air column INSIDE the tubes.

[imperialbari]

Didn’t the 100 or more years old Eb tubas come with very much smaller mouthpieces than what are considered small tuba mouthpieces today? In diameter as well as in cup depth?

How does the OP’s sample respond to something like a Bach 3G bass trombone mouthpiece? Maybe a 2G, as already the ## 1 1/2, 1 1/4, or 1 would be on the deep side, cupwise.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Didn’t the 100 or more years old Eb tubas come with very much smaller mouthpieces than what are considered small tuba mouthpieces today? In diameter as well as in cup depth?

How does the OP’s sample respond to something like a Bach 3G bass trombone mouthpiece? Maybe a 2G, as already the ## 1 1/2, 1 1/4, or 1 would be on the deep side, cupwise.

Klaus

[brassbow]

I have a USA line Eb that goes horribly out of tune from Eb down. I tried an experiment that seems to work. Using the alternate fingering chart from arban's I pulled my 3rd slide way out. Intonation got easier. This is the results of the test b in the staff=3: F#=3: F=2-3: E=1-3.
Now open Eb below is VERY flat open but Eb=1-2-3 is intune. D=0: C#=2: C=1-2: B=1-3 B=1-2-3. False tone A is open. yes my valves are bad but this seems to work with bad valves. Will some other Eb player try this. remember 3rd slide goes way out for this to work.

[imperialbari]

I have a USA line Eb that goes horribly out of tune from Eb down. I tried an experiment that seems to work. Using the alternate fingering chart from arban's I pulled my 3rd slide way out. Intonation got easier. This is the results of the test b in the staff=3: F#=3: F=2-3: E=1-3.
Now open Eb below is VERY flat open but Eb=1-2-3 is intune. D=0: C#=2: C=1-2: B=1-3 B=1-2-3. False tone A is open. yes my valves are bad but this seems to work with bad valves. Will some other Eb player try this. remember 3rd slide goes way out for this to work.

You likely mean the test Eb should be fingered 3.

What you recommend is retuning the 3rd slide to lower the instrument a major third rather than a minor third. And then that the notes below the 2nd partial should be fingered a semitone up.

The calc appears being right, but the fingerings don’t look intuitive to me.

Klaus

[GC]

@Elephant: I never saw the other horn personally, so I can't supply pictures. I rely on Lee's comments to me.

@Imperialbari: The physical reality of horn assembly is that changes in bracing, mouthpieces, fixing of leaks, and so on can affect intonation because they affect how the horn vibrates. I'm not a repair person, but I've heard people many, many times talk about how notes change when braces are moved, removed, or added. There was a discussion here a good while back of how braces attached over vibrational node locations can throw a horn off.

Once I got a friend to try my 1925 monster Eb with three different mouthpieces to see whether or not he had the same responses to the way the horn played with each, in particular to see the effects on F in the staff. With first valve and a Conn Helleberg 120, the F was quite flat. With a Conn Helleberg 7B, it was horrendously flat, more than a quarter step, but some other problem notes were better in tune. With an old, wide, very shallow conical-cup mouthpiece that looks like pictures in a 1920's Conn catalog, the F could be lipped into reasonable tune without a lot of effort, and most of the problem notes were no longer problems. I've been using that same antique mouthpiece on a Civil-War era Eb saxhorn for a while now, and while it makes the tone brighter than I like, it has cured some response issues. In particular, the low register is easier to control, and the whole horn plays better in tune.

[brassbow]

I have a Conn 16j 3 valve Eb tuba. it is mostly in tune; however the D, Db, and C below the staff are 40 cents flat. I have switched from a pt-42 mouthpiece to a Roger Bobo Solo mouthpiece and can lip the pitch up about 5 more cents.

Sorry puntuation goes a long way. I mean B in the staff with the slide out is 3. the rest is how my horn seems to work. The Arbans book talks about german fingering ( granted my arbans is in treble cleff). So presuming the treble instrument is in C, his chart shows C=0; B=2; Bb=1; A=12; Ab/G#=3; G=0; F#=2; F=1;E=12; Eb=3; D=23; Db=13; C=0(*);B=2; Bb=1; A=12; Ab=3; G=23; F#=13;F=123.
* my low concert Eb is almost 35/40 cents flat according to my tuner when played open. I find it easier to lip down then up so my experiment made a smoother transition from Eb=123 going down then trying to lip up Eb. Since i find it easier to lip down then up D becomes 0. Granted this may be from me doubling on treble brass down to tuba, but I find alternate fingerings to work. I have a rotary Eb flugelhorn that likes ALL C#=123, D=13, Eb=3, E=12, while my Eb cornet is fine with modern fingerings. Note the Flugel is about 30 years old made as a reproduction by Rob Stewart. My cornet is made circa 1911. Also on the 1911 Eb cornet someone scratched a line in the 3rd valve dropping it to a major 3rd. So this player played with the german fingering.

[Karituba]

I'm going to look into the brace issue when I take it in to be properly cleaned. Wonderful suggestion by everyone. Thank You

[jon112780]

Depending on the length of the main slide, you could add a tuning rod with a handle or a rod connected to a trigger (like on the Besson euphoniums). It might take a couple hundred bucks to have the slides cut, aligned, braced, and then add the trigger; but isn't playing in tune worth it?

Kevin Powers at Custom Music is the guy to talk to about adding the trigger. His website is in the process of being updated/changed/etc, but he's put the tuning trigger on the main slide to lots of euphoniums. I've had my horns in there a number of times, he does excellent work.

[Doug Elliott]

Or you could just play trombone.

[Bob Kolada]

...because there are so many 19" belled, .690 Eb contrabones out there.