Heavy bottom caps?

[sousaphone68]

I have been browsing the for sale section and came across a couple of references to custom heavy weight bottom caps.
After pondering this for awhile I have to ask what is the benefit or perceived benefit of heavier bottom caps?

[eupher61]

It certainly benefits the manufacturer.

[Dan Schultz]

I have heavy bottom AND top caps on my piston Marzan. I haven't really used the horn that much lately but initially... I noticed no difference.

[MikeW]

You can sell "heavyweight" just about anything to a trumpet player, if you advertise that your product will:

• Reduce upper overtones to darken his tone
• Make slotting more secure
• Improve focus
• Cause problems if overdone (so only put a heavy cap on one valve...)

Just never tell him it will stop working when he stops believing (a few of them seem to have discovered this independently).

Tube-netters seem to have a much higher ho-hum factor, but we do have a minority of heavyweight believers.

[iiipopes]

Before there were heavy bottom caps, my dad, in the late 1950's, would just put a dime in the bottom valve cap. It was the same size as the valve casing of his Super 20 trumpet, without interfering with the threads. Let's see: heavy valve caps, $10 to $50/set. A dime - $0.10. If you're worried about crud, drill the dime.

I do find that on the rare occasion that I play my uncle's Silvertone cornet, that a dime on the bottom of the third valve marginally helps with solid tone and quicker response, but more than that just slows response. I tried adding weight by way of a quarter to the Besson I used to own, but being a tank to begin with, all it did was impede response.

[MartyNeilan]

Reduces sympathetic vibrations. Helpful if your horn has them. Not too useful if it doesn't. Given the mass already in a valveset, not a likely source of unwanted vibrations. Inadequately braced tubing, a poorly attached leadpipe, or an overly live bell/loose kranz or wire more often the cause of unwanted vibration that can negatively color the sound.

[swillafew]

I met a trumpet player who had one on the third valve to "lower the pitch".

I am skeptical.

[hbcrandy]

Heavyweight valve caps do make a quantifiable difference. They make the tuba heavier.

[sousaphone68]

From reading the replies I realise that I should have asked " what problem were heavy caps intended to solve?"

I think Marty's post answers that question for me.

I don't currently own a tuba that needs it but for those that have done it what model tubas did you do it to?

[Rick Denney]

Despite the giggling by the old farts on this forum, I did actually install them on my Miraphone and gave them a real (if subjective) test. I made the report on the old Tubenet (which means this experiment took place before 2004--actually, before 2002 because I remember the basement of a previous house when Ray and I did the test).

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8032&p=61209&hilit= ... hts#p61209

The answer is that it does have an effect. Whether that effect is positive or negative depends on the instrument, the player, and the player's objectives.

It will not change your life. Any tuba player with a thin sound will have a thin sound with heavy valve caps. Any tuba player who can make a gorgeous sound with the heavy caps can make one without them. They will not make the difference between winning or losing an audition. I installed them as a fun engineering experiment, not because I actually expected them to work. I'm still the same crappy player I was. For most, they are a game of self-delusion, and that's why the curmudgeons claim they have no effect. They do have an effect, but chasing that sort of effect is navel-gazing.

Rick "noting that we are talking about a significant change in weight, not just a little more thickness in brass or a silver dime under the cap" Denney

[iiipopes]

Rick "noting that we are talking about a significant change in weight, not just a little more thickness in brass or a silver dime under the cap" Denney

For a trumpet or cornet to damp unwanted resonances, this is a significant change in placement as well as mass. For a tuba, as I mentioned on my Besson, it could take quite a bit, and also as posted above, may or may not result in a desireable result. Your mileage will vary.

[hbcrandy]

Back in the mid 1990's during my 10 year reign of terror as a French horn pro shop owner, I was given a set of heavyweight valve caps for the Conn 8D horn and was asked to evaluate them. In addition to doing a blind test in my shop with 8D players, through which we determined no significant difference to the players, I also took my Conn 8D to the Walter Lawson horn shop where their accoustician, Bruce Lawson, ran a spectrum analysis throughout the entire range of the horn both with and without the heavyweight valve caps. When Bruce compared printouts of the spectrum analysis, he did find very small differences in the extreme upper overtones with the heavyweight valve caps. Without knowledge of my empirical survey of 8D players, Bruce predicted that such a miniscule difference, according to the spectrum analysis, would be imperceptible to the unbiased player.

A good friend of mine was on tour and giving a trumpet master class in the western United States. During the class he was asked by a participant, "What is the best tone intensifier? (weighted sleeve to put over the shank of the mouthpiece). He responded, "Three hours of practice a day." I agree heartily with this. Study with a good private teacher. Put in long, productive practice sessions. Hone your playing skills. You will become a better player. There are no genies in magic lamps.

[iiipopes]

I agree the best solution is more practice. However, depending on the horn, it may or may not make a marginal difference. I also have a Besson trumpet that it doesn't matter whether it has light valve caps, heavy valve caps, no valve caps, or tape a whole roll of lead tape to it. It still plays the same. Likewise, I don't think it would make much difference, if any at all on my Miraphone, but I'm not in the mood to experiment. It does on my cornet.

I would think that due to the size of the rotors compared with the mass of the instrument, overall length of tubing, and all the other places resonances, nodes and anti-nodes occur, it would make the least difference on a french horn.

Now, going to the other extreme, the idea of placement of a particular mass in a particular spot has reached a marketing zenith with the Cannonball "Stone" trumpet: insetting a semi-precious stone in a collar where the pipe from the downside of the tuning slide goes into the third valve slide, and even got a patent on it!