5 Valve Tubas

[2GBTG]

This poor guy needs some help.

Why is it that there are 5 valve tubas, but your most common choices are 5 rotary valves,or a 4 piston +1 rotary valve combo.

Now am I just blind and can't find a 5 piston valve model, or are they just not made:

-Why not?
-Is it possible?
-Is there a purpose?

Discuss.


P.s. I'm new here. Names Kitch. Nice to meet yinz.

[thezman]

Well physically it would be difficult to have it in the same configuration that a 4p+1r is in. However, it is possible to have a 5 piston tuba if the piston is operated by the left hand. This can come in several forms, including but not limited to, +1p (so a 4+1) or (and I've only seen someone do this one as a home job) put it in a place similar to the two rotaries on a 6 valve F.

A 6 piston F can be seen here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... 500wt_1156" target="_blank

Personally i don't like occupying both my hands so I can pull slides....but that's just me

[Dan Schultz]

A five piston valve section is not impossible to build. I've had several double-bell euphoniums where the 5th valve is the change valve for the small bell and intended to be operated by the left hand.

I suppose the best answer I can come up with is that a four piston valve section is very common. A fifth valve is more-or-less just an option and it's easier to 'add-on' a rotor.

[Mojo workin']

Thein Brass Instruments make a few different 5+ piston models.

[k001k47]

A 6 piston F can be seen here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... 500wt_1156" target="_blank" target="_blank

Hey, isn't that the one that can make me sound like jake?

[2GBTG]

Well it's obvious that my Google-fu i weak. I guess a little more background from me would shed a little light on to what i'm looking for.

I grew up playing BBb in my corps band of The Salvation Army; and I have only ever been exposed to 4 valve compensating Bessons. I would be looking for a set up more along the lines of these tubas with 3 top action +2 side action. Whether it's compensating or not is no real concern to me.

Any one know of something like this readily manufactured, or will i just have to save up and hope someone like Dan could help make my dream come true someday.


P.s. For what it's worth, I found these forums from a link off your website Dan a couple years ago and I've been stalking since. It took me till recently to register though.

Kitch

[PMeuph]

I would be looking for a set up more along the lines of these tubas with 3 top action +2 side action. Whether it's compensating or not is no real concern to me.

Any one know of something like this readily manufactured, or will i just have to save up and hope someone like Dan could help make my dream come true someday.

3+2 as a compensating horn would be uselessly redundant. (i.e. because the 5th valve allows to play the note one semitone above the pedal, a note which is imposible to play on a 4 valve note without using false tones or re-tuning one of the other slides (Possibly the 3r piston slide, as it it usually long enough) On a compensating horn, the low range of the instrument is fully chromatic.

Some older Couesnon and Courtois Saxhorns have 5 valves. However these are bass saxhorns (At the same pitch as euphoniums).

I have found this one Courtois tuba with 5 valves.(It's an old classified ad) There are surely more, but they don't seem to be made any more.
http://www.batteriefanfare.com/t1504-tu ... s-a-vendre" target="_blank

[thezman]

A 6 piston F can be seen here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... 500wt_1156" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Hey, isn't that the one that can make me sound like jake?

I thought the owner said it would make you sound like Hojo, but either way it will make your wallet significantly less thick!

[eupher61]

The previous owner of that Mahillion (a friend) said nothing of the sort. The Jacobs connection was speculated upon here. It was noted by others that
that previous owner is a former student of Howard, and mention was made somewhere that it was a model Howard played.

Agreed that 5 compensating valves is not a necessary thing, except for a change valve of some kind. A 5valve compensating double bell. My back hurts thinking about it.

[Highpitch]

I have seen a photo of an early Highams tuba with a 3+2 valve arrangement (2 for the left hand a la Bessons), non-compensating.

DG

[THE TUBA]

Thein Brass Instruments make a few different 5+ piston models.

[jonesbrass]

Rudolph Meinl made a set of 3+2 piston BBbs for the 76th Army Band in the late 1990s.

[hbcrandy]

I owned and played a five piston valved CC tuba made by H.N. White, King. I got it from Warren Deck. The tuba was originally made for Fred Geib. It had four front-action pistons operated by the right hand. The fifth piston came out of the side of the tuba past the four valve cluster and was operated by the left hand. The fourth valve that was operated by the pinky finger of the right hand was the equivalent of the 2 & 3 valve combination. The left-hand operated fifth valve was the equivalent of a 1 & 3 combination. It was a German, Sander fingering system that Mr. Geib played. When I was studying with Warren Deck, he playing Mr. Geib's Conn CC rotary valved tuba that had the same fingering system as the King that I eventually acquired.

Mike Lynch now owns the Fred Geib King. I played the King as my main CC tuba for 10 years. I sold it because King piston valves hurt my fingers.

[hbcrandy]

I owned and played a five piston valved CC tuba made by H.N. White, King. I got it from Warren Deck. The tuba was originally made for Fred Geib. It had four front-action pistons operated by the right hand. The fifth piston came out of the side of the tuba past the four valve cluster and was operated by the left hand. The fourth valve that was operated by the pinky finger of the right hand was the equivalent of the 2 & 3 valve combination. The left-hand operated fifth valve was the equivalent of a 1 & 3 combination. It was a German, Sander fingering system that Mr. Geib played. When I was studying with Warren Deck, he playing Mr. Geib's Conn CC rotary valved tuba that had the same fingering system as the King that I eventually acquired.

Mike Lynch now owns the Fred Geib King. I played the King as my main CC tuba for 10 years. I sold it because King piston valves hurt my fingers.

[k001k47]

I don't think OP meant a 3+2 compensating horn; I think he wants 3+2 or 4+1 valves in an upright setup - which I think is a doble custom job. No horns in current production runs come to mind in thiis setup.

[2GBTG]

So I guess my next question is, what should I look for if I were looking to have this 3+2 setup, or even a 3+3 setup?

I imagine a good 3 valve tuba with with upright valves, but then what?
Should that tuba have a certain bore range?
Should the additional valve set have a larger bore than the original set?

I have really no knowledge of what makes a tuba do what it does, so if any one knows of a good source to start gaining this knowledge,let me know I'll be needing some winter reading.


Kitchen

[2GBTG]

The set up just looks uncomfortable to hold. The horn looks great, but i would need to see a picture of someone holding to comprehend the ergonomics of it.

Kitchen

[k001k47]

So I guess my next question is, what should I look for if I were looking to have this 3+2 setup, or even a 3+3 setup?

I imagine a good 3 valve tuba with with upright valves, but then what?

Find a piston or rotary valve and get lucky in finding a spot where the bore matches. Then' install a dependent 5th on that fourth. Also, pray that all this can be formed into a reasonably comfortable 3+2 setup.

The "french c" tuba was able to maintain this setup. Although it's not very tuba-like by today's standards.


I am no expert,though. Don't listen to me

[2GBTG]

That's the setup I'm looking for only in BBb.

[Uncle Buck]

My advice to the OP, based on your follow-up posts and questions, is to re-evaluate your desire for an 5 valve all piston horn. They exist but are rare and expensive, and not necessarily the best horns you will find. If you are looking to buy a tuba, you will end up buying a much better one if you drop that requirement.

Unless you're playing in a brass band where design/configuration is important to the ensemble, valve type (rotary vs. piston) should fall pretty far down the list of important considerations in purchasing a tuba.