Musical Shortsightedness

[Bob Kolada]

Helpful, detailed opening post. Bravo!

[jtuba]

For those of you out there(you know who you are), who only seem to believe exciting, accurate, powerful orchestral tuba playing only came into being with Warren Deck and Gene Pokorny........

What's getting you all riled up down there? You're too young to be a grumpy old man.

[ZNC Dandy]

For those of you out there(you know who you are), who only seem to believe exciting, accurate, powerful orchestral tuba playing only came into being with Warren Deck and Gene Pokorny........

I feel sorry for you.

(I love Deck & Pokorny's playing, but that's not the point)

Like x1000

[mbell]

Unquestionably the of the heap (and just about equally difficult to find orchestral recordings these days) is Roger Bobo.

I have a handful of the Metha/LA Phil recordings on LP. Good stuff and a shame so many of them have not been reissued. I was collecting them before I even realized Bobo was on them. The Planets and Alpine Symphony are a couple favorites.

There's been a recent thread on Novotny and Arnold Jacobs is of course always held in the highest regard. So, I am not sure about the players of days gone by being ignored, but maybe it is just the threads I happen to follow. I always enjoy reading and learning about those guys.

The players I'm most in the dark about are the ones from the great European orchestras. I can't name one of them, but there sure is some great stuff out of Vienna, Berlin, London, etc.

mike

[k001k47]

I wish I had a time machine. That way, I'd be able to listen to the greats live. . . Recordings (especially older ones) don't quite do the tuba sound justice. Hell, I haven't even listened to the current greats live. Methinks a tuba pilgrimage is in order.

[Ben]

Never looked at the score on that, just did, and dang, that's nice. I always thought there was some trombone help there. Nope. Mike rocked it.

[Rick Denney]

For those of you out there(you know who you are), who only seem to believe exciting, accurate, powerful orchestral tuba playing only came into being with Warren Deck and Gene Pokorny........

I feel sorry for you.

(I love Deck & Pokorny's playing, but that's not the point)

Did I miss something?

Rick "apparently avoiding, even if by accident, some annoying threads" Denney

[Chuck Jackson]

Great Post. I'll throw in my $.02.

Oscar LaGasse- wonderful player that can be heard on reissue. This guy had a marvelous, fat sound. Alex player IIRC.

Roger Bobo- sorry to all of you who cherish the Mehta/LAPO recordings, but they are noise to me. HOWEVER, anything he recorded with Previn and Leinsdorf are among my most liked recordings of that particular repertoire.

Kiltan Vinal-Smith- I really like his understated approach to the tuba. I like the Symphonie Fantastique and Petrouchka recordings as well as a searing Saint-Saens 3rd wih Munch.

Anything, ANYTHING with Joe Novotny.

Anything Chester Schmitz recorded on his Alex. The Leinsdorf/Romeo and Juliet Prokofiev recording still stops me in my tracks. Wish he had never switched to the woof machine.

Chester Roberts- His interpretation of Prokofiev's 5th with Cleveland from 1959 is, IMO, THE BEST tuba playing ever recorded on this work.

Paul Kryzwicki/Ormandy/ Philly Planets is wonderful. His playing of the descending scale in Saturn is what I always wanted to sound like.

Pat Landolfi- I have some Telarc/NJSO recordings that are ASTOUNDING. In particular is a Tsaik. 3rd. Amazing. Who says you need a BAT to be a badass.

Whoever the tuba player was on the Klempy/Philharmonia recording was a fabulous player. His Bruckner 6 and 4 are among the best I have ever heard. The Wagner double set is still one of my Top 5 favorites.

No one gives Norm Pearson the props he deserves. His playing on the LAPO Revueltas disk is PERFECT in every regard.

Walter Hilgers with the NDR Sinfonie is out of this world. The Bruckner 8 recording with Gunter Wand is the best recording of that work I have ever heard.

My top prize goes to the tuba player in the Bavarian State Orchestra in 1928 who absolutely lays down a stupendous rendition of Don Juan with Strauss conducting. Find it, love it, you won't be sorry.

Chuck"don't be a hater because I didn't include any CSO recordings, never cared for them"Jackson

[Chuck Jackson]

sloppy, sloppy, sloppy ensemble...

...but (simply to listen and understand how tuba lines should be interpreted) invaluable

A little hard for me to get past your first comment to gain the information you state in the second part of your comment. The lack of ANYTHING representing musical interprtation on ANYTHING Mehta (and Georg Solti for that matter) has done makes me shun his recordings like the proverbial plague. I think Mr. Bobo, and his great musicainship and tuba playing, are much better represented on other recordings. The Prokofiev Symphonies with Previn come immediately to mind. Norm Pearson has chimed in here about the tuba player on the LAPO Nevsky recording. It is very fine playing, but I can't remember if it is Pearson or Bobo playing. No matter, they are BOTH amazing players.

YMMV.

Chuck

[Rick Denney]

Did I miss something?

Hell if I know.

Well it's your thread.

I mean, was there some nasty thread I missed where a band of young'uns put forth the notion that only Pokorny and Deck exemplified exciting, accurate, and powerful orchestral tuba playing? Who is "you know who you are"? (Not names, of course, since you don't seem to want to challenge them in their threads.) Do these people actually exist?

Rick "who thought the common cliche was that only Arnold Jacobs produced exciting, accurate, and powerful orchestral tuba playing" Denney

[TubaTodd]

Anything, ANYTHING with Joe Novotny.

So I've read many accolades about Mr. Novotny, but I've never had the opportunity to ANY of his playing. Are there any recordings with him on it that are still available for purchase? I'll buy them this week if someone can suggest any. Thanks

[TubaTodd]

Get these, today:
Prokofiev 5
Nielsen symphonies (his grace note to start #4 is amazing..... WROMP!)
(there is a live Bruckner 6 from 1977, if you can find it, GET it)

Forgive my ignorance, but can you provide Amazon links or years for the first 2? Thanks

[TubaTodd]

Joe Novotny playing Stars and Stripes with the NYP.

JoeNovotny1.png

[Chuck Jackson]

The point of the thread is that anything originally recorded in the pre-digital era tends to be ignored.

And the beauty of this thread is that it will, hopefully, raise awareness to an new generation of players who have NO fundamental knowledge of the titans of our trade past the CSO in the modern recording era. There are A TON of recordings from that era that have been re-released in the past 15 years, enough of them, for me, to supplant ones that came out MUCH later. Case in point: You can purchase a used copy of the Prokofiev 5 from 1959 with Szell/Cleveland coupled with the one of best recordings of the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, with the same forces, from 1961 for @ $3. The information is available, for a good price, to those who WANT to let their ears teach them rather than being TOLD what is good.

Chuck

P.S.- Not ashamed to say that I ate a big ol slice of humble pie when I was working in radio and opined that an English Orchestra couldn't possibly play Bruckner 4 well, much less one led by an eccentric German who was washed up years ago. John Clare asked me to approach it with an open mind. That recording of Bruckner 4 with The Philharmonia Orchestra is my benchmark for the work. Controlled, beautifully played, and the tuba playing is brilliant. I was 45 years old.

[ZNC Dandy]

Whoever the tuba player was on the Klempy/Philharmonia recording was a fabulous player. His Bruckner 6 and 4 are among the best I have ever heard. The Wagner double set is still one of my Top 5 favorites.

That would be John "Tug" Wilson. His playing leaves me astonished on EVERY recording I've heard him on. Plays the hell out of an old English F tuba. Check out his playing on the "Belshazzar's Feast", with Walton conducting the Philharmonia. I'm with you 110% on the Bruckner recordings, and the Wagner discs, the Prelude to Act I of Lohengrin especially.

Speaking of the Philharmonia, John Jenkins was an astonishingly good tuba player. Check out some of the Philharmonia/Jarvi Prokofiev recordings. Especially The War and Peace Suite, and Russian Overture.

I'm very glad Robert started this thread. He has a great knowledge of recordings and it's a pleasure to talk recordings with him!

[JCalkin]

People tend to gravitate towards what they know, and what they like. No real shame in that, just human nature.

That said, It can be difficult for people to experience new (old) recordings from pre-iTunes days, particularly if one is listening for the tuba playing. Samples on iTunes (or Amazon, or whatever) may not feature the excerpts tubists are listening for (and may not, in fact, feature the 5% of a work in which the tubist plays).

And buying CDs from a brick-and-mortar? Fuggedaboutit. I used to LOVE going to Barnes&Noble, Borders, and Tower Records and listening to CDs at those little stations where you could put the CD under a scanner and "preview" the entire disc before buying. You got a better idea of the entire piece and the headphones were actually pretty good.
Nowadays the only classical CDs you can find in most stores are those damned "Mozart for Babies" or "Relaxing Classical Favorites" pieces of crap.

Having younger players interested in Gene or Warren at all shows a good level of interest. Rather than calling it "shortsightedness" and attacking them, let's call it "inexperience" and give them an opportunity to hear some great stuff, as others have done, by suggesting works/CDs/players/orchestras to listen to. I've already learned of some new ones from this thread and will be checking those out.

[Richard Murrow]

Surprisingly, no one has mentioned the Previn/London Symphony recordings with John Fletcher! Fabulous, tasteful tuba playing that never sounded strained or forced! Oh, and yes it is plentiful. I bought many of them years ago in the vinyl form. Beautiful playing!

Also, here's one that may not come up at all. Many years ago I was doing quite a lot of research on August Helleberg. During that time it came to my attention that during a period between 1902 and 1906 that he was on some recordings with Enriqo Caruso. If you know anything about recording of that time you will know that everyone sat very closely around a horn/microphone. It was not electric and the fidelity left a lot to be desired so that every instrument sounded a little like a kazoo! I was fortunate enough to find a couple of remastered recordings of that era with Caruso and 2 things stood out. A terrific tenor and a terrific tuba player! Everything else was pretty poor. Keep in mind that Helleberg was playing the double bass parts because with the primitive recording technique the basses would not be picked up. He was light years ahead of his time. I'm sure he is on MANY old recordings before 1936, when he passed away, that we will never know about. Joe Tarto who was a freelance player and lived into the late 1980's said he heard Helleberg play many times in the studios and said, "Helleberg had the most beautiful sound I ever heard".

Well, I guess there have been greats to emulate for a very long time!

Richard Murrow

[bort]

Regarding digital music, there's an interesting new problem -- if you buy something and don't like it, you're stuck with it. You can't even give it away. Just money you've paid and are stuck with it.

I could see that this might affect people's purchasing habits for classical music, especially casual listeners. Buy what I know I will like, or buy something that might be okay? What can you *really* tell from four 30-second samples of a 60 minute symphony, anyway?

[jeopardymaster]

Now I'm looking for one of my old LPs - a second tier label recording of Russian classics conducted by Arthur Winograd. I bought it in the '70s but it might have been recorded in the '60s. I surmised that "The Virtuoso Symphony of London" was a pickup group. (English guys most welcome to disabuse or validate.) Cuts of the Rimski-Korsakov Easter Overture and Gliere Russian Sailors' Dance were why I bought it. Tuba playing was positively amazing, and I have no idea who it could have been if not Fletcher. Must be out of print but I found this link on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Composer- ... B002RXTKDG" target="_blank" target="_blank

[toobagrowl]

I prefer orchestra recordings from the 1960s - 1980's. I rarely listen to modern orchestras or tuba players; especially post-2000. Everything now is just over-edited/digitized and too much emphasis on making everything 'perfect'; losing sight of the big picture of music making.

I find these recordings as great examples for excellent, musical, exciting tuba & orchestral playing:

Boston Pops/Schmitz (Festive Overture & Night on Bare Mountain are especially great) -
http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Fiedler-Le ... +Orchestra

NY Philharmonic/Novotny/Bell -
http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Compl ... B00008PW4A

Highly recommended