Intonation Mystery - Advice Needed

[wranne]

I got a good deal on an old Meinl-Weston "William Bell" C Tuba last year. The seller listed it on these forums though I got it even cheaper on eBay. I hadn't played in 12 years but was a performance major at one point. I got my chops back up to shape and became aware of a nagging intonation problem.

Open Low C and Open Middle C will not tune with the Open G in between them! If the C is tuned the G is about 20 cents flat no matter how much I try to "lip" it up. Of course this effects all the other notes in that range to some extent.

I need your advice to know if their is a solution to this problem. Thanks, Wil

[Ben]

Wil,

This is a common problem on some tubas. I am not familiar with the Bell model horn, but use 13 (4th partial) instead of open (3rd partial) and you should be in like flynn

[MartyNeilan]

Yup, quite a few tubas seem to have this problem. If the G is just a little flat, it can easily be lipped. For 20 cents, 13, 4, or even 125 are all options - see which works best.

[hbcrandy]

Let me preface my comments by saying that one of my CC tubas is a Bill Bell Model MW. Also, in the past I owned a King CC tuba, the tuba after which the Bell Model MW is styled.

Ben is correct about fingering the 4th partial G with first and third valve. When doing that, you may have to pull the first valve slide a bit because that valve combination may make that G a bit sharp. Another thing to try is to have the shank of your mouthpice turned down so that it goes all of the way into the receiver to the start of the leadpipe. My King had the same problem with the G as does your MW. During a lesson, Warren Deck had a mouthpiece that he had the shank taper turned down and fit all of the way into my King's receiver. It made a major difference. In my case, it made the G playable as an open note. I cannot explain accoustically why this worked. It may not work in your case, but, it is a thought. My Meinl Weston has other intonation problems. Since you have not mentioned other problems. I will not discuss these issues so as not to send you on an intonation witch hunt.

I really love the sound of the Bell Model MW. I have played it through my last two years in the orchestra. It has gotten me through Tchaikowsky 5 & 6, Sibelius 2 and Franck Symphony in D Minor to name a few. Enjoy your Meinl Weston.

[wranne]

Let me preface my comments by saying that one of my CC tubas is a Bill Bell Model MW. Also, in the past I owned a King CC tuba, the tuba after which the Bell Model MW is styled.

Ben is correct about fingering the 4th partial G with first and third valve. When doing that, you may have to pull the first valve slide a bit because that valve combination may make that G a bit sharp. Another thing to try is to have the shank of your mouthpice turned down so that it goes all of the way into the receiver to the start of the leadpipe. My King had the same problem with the G as does your MW. During a lesson, Warren Deck had a mouthpiece that he had the shank taper turned down and fit all of the way into my King's receiver. It made a major difference. In my case, it made the G playable as an open note. I cannot explain accoustically why this worked. It may not work in your case, but, it is a thought. My Meinl Weston has other intonation problems. Since you have not mentioned other problems. I will not discuss these issues so as not to send you on an intonation witch hunt.

I really love the sound of the Bell Model MW. I have played it through my last two years in the orchestra. It has gotten me through Tchaikowsky 5 & 6, Sibelius 2 and Franck Symphony in D Minor to name a few. Enjoy your Meinl Weston.

Great advice Everyone, I really appreciate it.

I'm currently playing Sibelius 1, which is a good piece for me to get back to shape on I think. The tuba has a Dillon Adjustable Gap Receiver on it, I think it is all the way in but I'm not sure, if it isn't I'll see about getting the shank adjusted on my mouthpeice (schilke helleberg), seems worth a try. Otherwise, I'll use the alternate fingering.

[Rick Denney]

I'm currently playing Sibelius 1, which is a good piece for me to get back to shape on I think. The tuba has a Dillon Adjustable Gap Receiver on it, I think it is all the way in but I'm not sure, if it isn't I'll see about getting the shank adjusted on my mouthpeice (schilke helleberg), seems worth a try. Otherwise, I'll use the alternate fingering.

The Adjustible Gap Receiver affects response (and attack clarity out in the hall, maybe), not intonation to any great extent. You might be able to lip stuff easier with it set properly, but it won't change the intonation characteristics of the instrument.

Rick "suggesting that good intonation is best learned by playing with others, not so much by watching the needle on a tuner" Denney

[k001k47]

Your problem has my sympathy. Try alternate fingerings and playing the mouthpiece?

[b.williams]

Rick "suggesting that good intonation is best learned by playing with others, not so much by watching the needle on a tuner" Denney

+10000

[windshieldbug]

good intonation is best learned by playing with others, not so much by watching the needle on a tuner

+1K

A tuner is tuned the the "equal tempered" scale (the good news is that every note is equally "in-tune", the bad news is that every note is equally "out-of-tune")

[Mr. Cunz]

Your problem has my sympathy. Try alternate fingerings and playing the mouthpiece?

I agree with k001k47. I think it might be more beneficial to use a combination of alt fingerings and slide pulling over modifying your equipment.

[Jack Denniston]

I bought my MW Bell model from Mr. Bell in 1968. I was taking lessons from him at the time. My experience with the G was similar to yours. The only way I could play it in tune with good sound quality was to use alternate fingerings. Mr Bell noticed I was doing this and asked why. I told him. He seemed surprised at my answer and asked me to hand him the horn so he could try it. He did and he said "****".

You might ask Sam Pilafian for advice about mouthpieces- I think he has played a lot of these tubas and likes them real well.

[k001k47]

Your problem has my sympathy. Try alternate fingerings and playing the mouthpiece?

I agree with k001k47. I think it might be more beneficial to use a combination of alt fingerings and slide pulling over modifying your equipment.

I decided to comment because I own a similar BellModel.

I bought my MW Bell model from Mr. Bell in 1968. I was taking lessons from him at the time. My experience with the G was similar to yours. The only way I could play it in tune with good sound quality was to use alternate fingerings. Mr Bell noticed I was doing this and asked why. I told him. He seemed surprised at my answer and asked me to hand him the horn so he could try it. He did and he said "****".

You might ask Sam Pilafian for advice about mouthpieces- I think he has played a lot of these tubas and likes them real well.

I read a story here on TubeNet of someone testing (early) production Bell Model horns. Said person commented the horn played poorly, despite Mr. Bell insisting they were good tubas. Mr.Bell then proceded to play test one with a well-tempered scale, using all kinds of alternate fingerings . . . or was the alternate fingerings part pulled from a story about his 'parts bin' King F tuba? . . . Hell, I don't know

I got a good deal on an old Meinl-Weston "William Bell" C Tuba last year. The seller listed it on these forums though I got it even cheaper on eBay. I hadn't played in 12 years but was a performance major at one point. I got my chops back up to shape and became aware of a nagging intonation problem.

Open Low C and Open Middle C will not tune with the Open G in between them! If the C is tuned the G is about 20 cents flat no matter how much I try to "lip" it up. Of course this effects all the other notes in that range to some extent.

I need your advice to know if their is a solution to this problem. Thanks, Wil

You bought it last year? The forum indicates you joined in 2010. Did the forum stimulate your interest in playing tuba after a 12 year layoff? This has 'effect'ed my disposition towards this thread (catalyst to curiosity, really). 'Their'fore, I agree with you: indeed a mystery.

There really is a solution, and it lies within you.

[sloan]

[quote="wranne" ... The seller listed it on these forums though I got it even cheaper on eBay.
...
I need your advice to know if their is a solution to this problem. Thanks, Wil[/quote]

Perhaps you should ask your question on eBay?

[k001k47]

Also thought I'd mention. . . My Bell Model horn will bite me in the arse if I let up and relax my ears and chops: it's never been a 'point and shoot' horn for me.

[wranne]

I bought my MW Bell model from Mr. Bell in 1968. I was taking lessons from him at the time. My experience with the G was similar to yours. The only way I could play it in tune with good sound quality was to use alternate fingerings. Mr Bell noticed I was doing this and asked why. I told him. He seemed surprised at my answer and asked me to hand him the horn so he could try it. He did and he said "****".

You might ask Sam Pilafian for advice about mouthpieces- I think he has played a lot of these tubas and likes them real well.

I'm a BIG fan of Sam, didn't know he played these.