Baritone vs. Euphonium

[Donn]

Yes, of course, there may be different parts for the cornet & trumpet, I don't think anyone would doubt that. The question is whether there were distinct parts for baritone and euphonium; GC seems to have answered that when he spotted "or Bb bass" on the 3rd trombone part - at least, here are two distinct parts for 9 foot Bb valved horns, whatever you'd call them.

[iiipopes]

GC seems to have answered that when he spotted "or Bb bass" on the 3rd trombone part - at least, here are two distinct parts for 9 foot Bb valved horns, whatever you'd call them.

Yes. Holst did that. This was early enough that the Bb saxhorn was still common. I've also seen original marching band parts for such marches as Colonel Bogey that said "tenor saxhorn" or "baritone saxhorn" instead of simply "tenor horn" or "baritone horn," and we must remember that the bore, taper and valve configuration of a true saxhorn is still another completely different instrument in layout than the brass band baritone, the American hybrid baritone-horn, or the euphonium.

[cjk]

Hmmm,
isn't anybody gonna' take a shot at fitting the tenor tuba into this picture?

Tenor Tuba is what tuba players call their baritones.

[Radar]

trumpet = trombone
cornet = baritone
flugelhorn = euphonium

I will use this with my students - I like it!

This isn't quite accurate either the Cornet is a Conical bore version of the trumpet, so it has more in common with the Euphonium than the Baritone. Most of the horns referred to as Baritone horns here in the US are really Euphoniums. The student instruments (most with forward facing bells) we all learned to play on in grade school although smaller bore than pro model Euphoniums still have conical bores and are best classified as Euphoniums.

[Radar]

Sousa and Fillmore and probably others wrote seperate cornet parts, trumpet parts, baritone parts, and euphonium parts for a reason.

Did they? Thought that was a British brass band thing. We see different parts for treble and bass clef, but they look the same to me otherwise. Liberty Bell, Invincible Eagle for examples that I happen to have on hand. As for the instruments, I'd expect an older American baritone to have similar `middle of the road' proportions to the later ones, but am not so familiar with the really antique stuff from Sousa's early years. I think that may have been around the end of the period where what we'd call a baritone was the Bb bass, but don't take my word for it!

I have some old Fillmore marches in my music library that even have trble clef tuba parts.

I've definately seen march portfolios by these composers with separate Cornet and Trumpet parts. I do know that Sousa's band had both Baritone and Euphonium players (you can see it in pictures of the band, I'm assuming his original arrangements didn't have them playing the same parts, but I haven't seen separate parts in the folios I've seen for Baritone and Euphonium. British brass band arrangements that I've seen definately have separate parts for baritone horn and Euphonium.

[Donn]

trumpet = trombone
cornet = baritone
flugelhorn = euphonium

I will use this with my students - I like it!

This isn't quite accurate either the Cornet is a Conical bore version of the trumpet, so it has more in common with the Euphonium than the Baritone.

So you sound pretty positive that the baritone isn't conical? That would make it essentially an upright valve trombone - sound right?

[Bombardonier]

(...separate baritone and euphonium parts...?) Grainger...not just for brassbands...

[imperialbari]

(...separate baritone and euphonium parts...?) Grainger...not just for brassbands...

Until a conference in 1927 (or thereabout) British military bands had euphoniums as well as baritones. Hence the Holst and Grainger scores have baritones.

After the conference the baritones were replaced by tenor saxophones.

Klaus

[Radar]

[/quote]

So you sound pretty positive that the baritone isn't conical? That would make it essentially an upright valve trombone - sound right?[/quote]

Pretty much that is the definition that I've always seen. The Baritone horn is like a trombone in that it's tubing is the same Cylindrical diameter throughout the majority of it's Length like that of a trombone or trumpet. The one the Army Reserve Band I played in had was definately more like a trombone in tone color than it was like a Euphonium. Although it did blow more freely than the valve trombones I've tried, which are usually very small bore to keep the weight of the valve section down. I've tried several valve trombones over the years and have never found one that I wanted to play for very long.

[Donn]

It's all relative. Trombone, trumpets, valve trombones, cimbassos are the least conical of their respective sizes. Hence, "cylindrical" - they may not be literally, but at least they are near to the practical limit in that direction.

Baritones are more conical than valve trombones. I've never played one, but we have one in the band, and it's no valve trombone, it's a conical horn.

[bbocaner]

Euphonium: starts out one size, gets a little bigger after the first three valves, gets a little bigger at the end of the fourth valve tubing, gets a little bigger into the main tuning slide, tapers through the main tuning slide, and then tapers from there all the way out.

baritone: starts out one size, stays that size until after the main tuning slide (usually the main tuning slide is reversable, and often is the same size tubing as the first valve slide), and then begins to taper

trombone: completely cylindrical through the whole handslide section. even if it is a dual bore handslide, you are still talking about two completely cylindrical tubes connected by a very slightly tapered crook at the bottom. Might be a little bit of of a step up through the tenon, and a little bit of a taper through the gooseneck area, but it doesn't really start to taper until the back bow/ main tuning slide. This is roughly equivalent to the last branch in a baritone or euphonium, where the euphonium is already a good 2 inches plus in diameter, and the baritone is already at least an inch in diameter.

[bbocaner]

oddly enough, a modern trumpet really IS a cornet. The historic trumpet was pitched an octave lower and played higher in the overtone series. It had completely cylindrical tubing all the way until the very last piece, the bell section. While a modern trumpet is wrapped a little differently than a cornet, the ratio of conical to cylindrical tubing is pretty much identical, and the tapers really aren't all that different either. Final bell size, wrap, receiver size, leadpipe taper, and the type of mouthpiece that players use on it -- that's really the only difference today.

[bbocaner]

A lot of the baritone/euphonium confusion stems from the fact that the historic american nomenclature came from the german system, because a lot of the players and makers in the early days of american brass playing were german immigrants. In germany, even today, the two sizes of instruments are called the "baryton" and the "tenorhorn". This is why it's silly for players to get snobby about whether their instrument is called a baritone or a euphonium, they are really both right depending on which system of nomenclature you are using. American band music has always, even largely to this day, said "baritone" when the composer was intending the euphonium instrument. It wasn't until american players started using british-made instruments which were a much different style than the traditional american king/conn/etc. "baritones" that they started using the british nomenclature en masse to distinguish their instrument.

So now we're in the odd situation where most american players use a british-style instrument and call it a euphonium, while most of their band parts say baritone at the top. And the old style instruments which most serious players don't touch any more are often called "american baritones" even though they ARE euphoniums, just with a different wrap and often slightly smaller bore and bells.

And tenorhorn, the word we use to describe the obsolete american instrument which approximates the british baritone, is the word that the british system uses to describe what we would call an alto horn.

19th century american band music usually does have both baritone and tenorhorn parts, just like the british music had both euphonium and baritone parts. The american composers started replacing the tenorhorns with trombones, while the british composers started supplementing with trombones and didn't drop the baritone until later from the military/wind/concert band (and didn't drop it at all from the brass band).

A lot of band music still has two parts for baritone and euphonium. I usually would see one or two per season in the band I played with -- you kind of need to train the librarian to recognize it when they see it. Not just grainger! Lots of transcriptions. Some of the music worked really well when you used the right instrument on it. Col. Bogey has two baritone parts and a euphonium part. Some of the newer editions of this music have edited it out, though.

[Radar]

hmm...

Trombones start out around 1/4" in diameter and end up 7-1/2" or more in diameter...yet they are not conical ?

It's all a matter of degree, any instrument with a bell is going to have a cone at the end, Instruments that are classified as Conical "bore" Start the Flair much earlier than those that are classified as cylidrical. Hence the Euphonium starts the flair immediately after the Valve section, a true baritone starts the flair much farther away from the valves. This has the effect on the tone that Conical instruments have a more mellow less bright tonal coloring, and more cylidrical instruments have a brighter tone with more attack. That's the effect the shape of the bore has on the overtones that are produced. If you put a trumpet and a Coronet, or a Baritone and a Euphonium side by side it's pretty easy to see this difference between the instruments, and if played in a consistent manner by the same player then the difference in sound is notable too!!
The shape of the instrument generally has more effect on the tone of an instrument than the bore size or other factors, although a larger bore allows for more volume and airflow before you start overblowing the instrument. I own several Trombones of different bore sizes, and they all sound like trombones, even my largest trombone which has a bore larger than my Euphonium doesn't sound like a Euphonium.

So yes technically you could say that all brass instruments are Conical if you include the bell section in this, the terms conical or Cylindrical really apply to the shape of the majority of the bore of the instrument prior to the Bell section. Although on a Conical bore instrument it is nearly inpossible to determine where the Bore ends and the bell section begins, on a cylindrical bore instrument such as a trombone it is easier to determine where the bell starts.

But Bloke I'm suspecting that you already knew all of this!!

[J.c. Sherman]

This topic could be beaten into the ground without ever getting consensus from everyone; numerous theses could be written with no common conclusion, and people will drag their feet based on early teachers, publications, and unknowing "certainty".

bbocaner and Mr. Werden are both "right" for the most part. We do sometimes forget that our tubas, euphonia, and baritones are all saxhorns, not just the "British baritone"; that from work to work there's often great difficulty determining what the hell "Tenor Tuba" actually means (rarely thinking of the time and context of the scoring). The Bass Tuba had a significant cylindrical section from its inception. Some baritones have tapered main tuning slides, but are dismissed as flukes or aberrations. The extreme variety of tubas in taper from company to company are ignored, but "baritones" are picked through with extreme severity, especially their kissing cousins in Germany by other names.

Nomenclature for Bb WTFophones will never be satisfactorily resolved from a standpoint of absolutism... but it can almost always be resolved with a little study from each composition in it's time and place. What's that in your hands? Well, how are you playing it, and what is the part in front of you and is your approach and choice an informed one?

Rarely is that last question honestly answered in the affirmative.

I look at my own "Baritone" (YBH-301) as a bass cornet in tone and in my approach. My YEP-321 is a Euphonium, but only a tenor tuba if demanded it be defined as such (usually I think a Wagner Tube is meant, but in the UK in 1900, that was a wildly different instrument than in Vienna). My bass trumpet and trombonium are not baritones in my approach, but trumpets.

There is great variation from make to make in most low brass... tuba family more than any other. Asking yourself the bolded question above and answering affirmatively and honestly will make the result appropriate for your ensemble, you, and the guy writing the check and waving the stick.

J.c.S. (obfuscating things further than necessary)

[tbn.al]

hmm...

Trombones start out around 1/4" in diameter and end up 7-1/2" or more in diameter...yet they are not conical ?

This has the effect on the tone that Cylindrical instruments have a more mellow less bright tonal coloring, and more conical instruments have a brighter tone with more attack.

Huh?

[Rick F]

<snip>This has the effect on the tone that Cylindrical instruments have a more mellow less bright tonal coloring, and more conical instruments have a brighter tone with more attack.

Huh is right. 'radar' just typed it backwards.

[Kevin Hendrick]

<snip>This has the effect on the tone that Cylindrical instruments have a more mellow less bright tonal coloring, and more conical instruments have a brighter tone with more attack.

Huh is right. 'radar' just typed it backwards.

"When in Drome, do as your pal in Drome does ..."

[Donn]

Well, note that the comment in question was a response to bloke's protest that the trombone obviously is not rigorously cylindrical.

So, I removed the offending bell section from my bass trombone, leaving only the cylindrical slide section, and indeed it's mellow and lacking in attack. QED

So while it might not fit observable data very well when it comes to real instruments, it's an interesting point inasmuch as the tonal quality of a bass trombone (a.k.a. slide chainsaw) isn't determined by the cylindrical part per se, but rather by the addition of some conical bell to the cylindrical slide. (And of course that is in turn a gross simplification, as there probably isn't an inch of really conical profile, it's all a continuously increasing taper, the details of which may vary radically from one instrument to another.)

[Teubonium]

In a British Brass Band, the only cylindrical instrument is the trombone. All others are considered conical. Think of the English baritone as a conical tenor trombone and the euphonium as a conical bass trombone.

The difference between bari and euph is a matter of bore size. As has been pointed out in previous posts, the American baritone is a hybrid, the bore & bell size and conicalness (is that a word?) is in between the bari & euph.