de-icing pistons

[gionvil]

what do you suggest to avoid freezing of pistons when playing out in the cold? Once they are stuck can pouring hot water damage the lacquer somehow?
Thanks

[iiipopes]

I have. In high school marching band. Extra rehearsal for marching contest before school. Standard King fiberglass (1st generation) souzys. Froze solid. Had I known then what I know now, I would have used a mix of vodka and valve oil.

[MikeW]

I got frozen out playing carols in Vancouver two years ago (-7 C). I got the valves thawed out and lubricated them with rubbing alcohol, but the rest of the group quit, so I don't know for sure if it worked. I know the alcohol didn't work 15 years ago at Winterfest in Saskatoon (-20 C, and we got frozen out in the middle of the first march).

The hand warmers sound like a good idea (I bought some last year, but haven't needed them yet) - you probably need to bandage them on with a thick woolen scarf, to reduce heat loss.

My guess is that condensation will beat you, one way or the other: either it will dilute the alcohol until it freezes, or ice will build up in remote areas like the tuning slide, and block the instrument: you just can't blow enough warm air through it to keep a tuba warm.

[Art Hovey]

Ordinary automotive anti-freeze works well as a piston valve lubricant. You can dilute it with a little water if it is too thick, but it does not take much. Just do not swallow the stuff.
Pure glycerin diluted with a little water also works, and is non-toxic. You can find it in most drug stores.

Alcohol will not last long because it evaporates quickly, and the evaporation process cools your valves.

Keep blowing into the tuba and pumping the valves to keep them warm. When water vapor from your breath condenses it releases heat where you need it. Drain the water just as you always do, but more often.

Do NOT inhale through the tuba. That just pulls cold air into the horn, and various vapors into your lungs.

Wrapping dry towels around the valve section, leadpipe, and moutpiece to insulate them from the cold also can help.

Finally, use a plastic mouthpiece and wear long underwear.

[iiipopes]

Ordinary automotive anti-freeze works well as a piston valve lubricant. You can dilute it with a little water if it is too thick, but it does not take much. Just do not swallow the stuff.

Yeah, that's what I used then, and made sure it all kept downstream, and thoroughly cleaned my horn out afterwards. I had one of those little bottles that food coloring comes in, and I put one small drop on each valve, and then some valve oil, spinning the valve one time around to distribute the antifreeze as I inserted it.

[Odins dog]

We used vale oil mixed with everclear 50/50 in Wisconsin for the football playoff games. I've played at temps down to 0 with hefty wind chill and never had a horn freeze up. Learned it from an old band director from North Dakota.

[MikeW]

If your temp never goes below 0C, you're not going to freeze up.
Wind chill is irrelevant (high wind chill means you cool down quicker, but it doesn't make the end-point any colder).

Messing with ethylene glycol anti-freeze, or methanol, or iso-propanol, or any other organic solvent, is NOT smart (DO NOT inhale that stuff, and remember that the fumes are explosive, so stay well clear of naked flames). Ethanol is also risky, but possibly a little less so than the other candidates.

Looking through the rest of the thread, I remember that in Saskatoon we added some glycerine to the alcohol, trying to make it stay around a bit longer, but no dice. I think when it gets that cold, the only thing that works is moving your event indoors, to the field house or a heated concert hall (not really possible when the central event is the burning of a huge pile of dead Christmas trees - and be careful of the flying sparks, a down-filled jacket burns real easy)

Bottom line is, above 0C, no problem. Below about -7C, no chance. Between those points, lubricating with alcohol and/or glycerine, or using hand warmers, may help, but not much.

[finnbogi]

Ordinary automotive anti-freeze works well as a piston valve lubricant. You can dilute it with a little water if it is too thick, but it does not take much. Just do not swallow the stuff.

This has worked well for me, down to at least -10°C. If the temperature is just below 0°C (as it is today; -2°C) I don't bother with this, though, as freshly applied Blue Juice usually does the job.

Finally, use a plastic mouthpiece and wear long underwear.

This is essential for any outdoor gig during winter.

[iiipopes]

I've played at temps down to 0 with hefty wind chill and never had a horn freeze up.

If your temp never goes below 0C, you're not going to freeze up.

I think Odins dog meant 0 Farenheit, or -18 Celsius.

[PMeuph]

I've played a gig where it was about -20ºC with the wind chill 2 months ago. The only thing that kept the horn going was a propane heater nearby. Every time the horn would freeze up, I would put it by the heater and let the frozen sections thaw out. It didn't help that this wasn't my horn and the owner did not take care of the horn so that there wasn't any valve oil (just water) on the valves anymore.

I I had to do it again, I would get some hand warmers (Like LJV suggested) and use plain old valve oil. Anti freeze would definitely prevent the valves from sticking (Especially the plumbing anti freeze that is rated to go to -40ºC/F) But I wouldn't want to deal with the potential toxic effects.

[Odins dog]

I did mean O degrees F. I played with the 1st Marine Division Band at the 2002 Olympics in Salt Lake City, and there we used Al Cass mixed with glycol, and the solution didn't mix well. Also the stuff is highly toxic, and gives some pretty noxious fumes through the horn. Grain alcohol is the better way to go in my experience.

[Lee Stofer]

Hand-warmers around the valves is a great idea, but as others have noted, automotive anti-freeze is not. There is a safer alternative! In the late 1980's I was in the US Army, Europe Band, playing a King sousaphone in a Fasching Parade in Bavaria in February. As I remember, it was -15 C that day, somewhere around 5 degrees F. I brought a household spray bottle filled with heavy-duty windshield washer/antifreeze, and I found that as my valves started getting a little "crunchy"-feeling, I could quickly pull the valves, the spray would immediately melt the ice beginning to form in the ports, and I was good for at least another march. Several brass players shared this bottle with me during the parade, and we were the only ones whose brass instruments worked that day. Only one trombonist tried it, and he was the only one with a working slide. The rest of the section could only play open tones, or whatever position their instrument was frozen into.

Playing in those conditions is not recommended for anyone, as we had two members of the Band suffer cold weather injuries that day. Fortunately, I got home just feeling freezer-burned ;^)

[Chriss2760]

The chemical handwarmers, previously mentioned, have worked for me for the past 16 years or so. I use electrical tape to hold them in place on my Yamaha 621-s pistons; on the Miraphone 186 I just stick them between the tubes next to the valves. These set ups work well down to at least 10F.

[imperialbari]

The pro-solution:

http://www.kellyaerospace.com/thermalsy ... deice.html

[imperialbari]

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/12/14/vod ... ian-frost/

[MikeW]

I did mean O degrees F. ...

Mucho respect!

I only played in a 0F (-20C) chill the once, with alcohol and glycerine for lubricant, and as I mentioned above, I got frozen out in the first march - can't say I'm eager for the chance to do more research. Fortunately, sub-zero (C) Christmas carols only seem to happen about once in ten years here in Vancouver, but I'm still holding the hand-warmers in reserve, just in case.