The INCREDIBLE 6/4 BAT CC from Big Mouth Brass-impressions

[Rick Denney]

...don't take my word for it, go try these horns...

Will they be at the Army Band conference in January?

Dick Barth indicated as much on his blog.

Rick "looking forward to it" Denney

[bort]

Dick Barth indicated as much on his blog.

Ah...well, I clearly didn't click through to the blog. I am less than not interested in trying or buying one of these, but accessibility and play testing will certainly help yield more varied opinions of how the tuba plays and sounds.

[tubajon]

I just got to play the 6/4 CC, the 4/4 CC , the F and the 3/4 BBb at Rochester NYSSMA. Before you spend $$$, please just try these tubas out.

[tubajon]

I think they are good. The F is almost as good as the Yamaha 822. The BAT is pretty easy to play; I think it's better than the Yorkbrunner. May not be as good as the 2165. It depends on how you play. The point is to try them before spending a whole lot more on other horns. If you can afford the cost of a Yamaha 822 and a Rudy Meinl 5/4, don't bother.

[Alex C]

Dick Barth is convinced of the absolute improvement in performance of his tubas with the 5th valve out of the main loop. He, and others, attribute the improved low register to a cleaner (my term) bugle.

As with many instrument designers (Vincent Bach, Reynold Schilke and Dave Monette for example) he believes in his product and presents what he believes is the very best tuba that he design.

No horn is for everybody. Miraphone isn't, M-W isn't, etc. isn't. Undoubtedly, BMB isn't, but a new, good tuba pushes all the other manufacturers to present a better product as wekk. Everybody will benefit from the results.

[Alex C]

oops

[Alex C]

There you go again, Bloke, applying logic. I bet it gets you into trouble sometimes, too.

The dependent fifth valve seems to be a significant distraction to some people, judging by the posts on several related threads. I was vehemently opposed to it myself until I played the new tubas, now I don't even think about it.

Don Butterfield played his entire career on a 3 valve BBb, but I feel weird on a three valve. I'm just sayin'.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I see Dick has posted the 'street prices' for the BAT 6/4 BBb (J-764 or J-765) & CC (J-864 or J-865) tubas.
All horns come with an 'MTS type'' plastic hard case with wheels and his Helleberg mouthpiece.
For a 4v BBb or CC--lacquer--$6,271 or in silver--$6,679.
For a 5v BBb or CC--lacquer--$6,696 or in silver--$7,104.

For more info, go to the full website of http://www.barthsbrassblog.com" target="_blank

Regards-
Mark

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I believe(?) the case is only available to those who purchase a horn--but better to email Dick directly and ask him. Good luck.
mark

[MartyNeilan]

I don't think the dependent rotor idea is a significant detraction or attraction.

FWIW, I have been playing my BART project the last couple years as a 4 valve horn - first 4 rotors and then 4 pistons (the 5th rotor won't be plumbed until I am 100% finished with the rest of the project, as I keep tweaking things.)
I really haven't missed the 5th valve too much. I keep my left hand on the fourth slide, and pull a little for 24 and more for 14. Low D is possible 1234 given the time to set up the slides, as in Stravinsky Rite of Spring. It also works fine as a 12 false tone. Low Db plays fine as a false tone 23 - and how often do you REALLY play a low Db outside of your own low register exercises?
So, having the added option of a dependent 5th valve takes a pefectly workable 4 valve horn and makes it even more versatile, giving you true valved notes down there and reducing the amount of pulling.
A lot of bass bonists prefer the dependent 2nd rotor (their "fifth valve") and DY wrote quote a bit about it:
http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... alves.html

[Bob Kolada]

How long is a trombone?
How long is a contrabass tuba?


What is the actual reason for having a dependent fifth on a contrabass tuba? Damn thing's already near twenty feet long; it's unlikely a very small bump will make a difference.

One can excuse certain things on a slide trombone; valved instruments have little excuse.

[Steve Marcus]

Low Db plays fine as a false tone 23 - and how often do you REALLY play a low Db outside of your own low register exercises?

The low Db on the Neptune plays in tune, more freely, and sounds more clear played 1-2-3-4-5 than as a privileged note fingered 2-3. Admittedly, this is not the case with other tubas whose privileged notes at that pitch (or the B natural on BBb horns) play with more projection than the 5-valve combination. It all depends upon the individual horn and, perhaps, the individual player.

I know some brass band players who have been lusting after original York Monster BBb tubas because, despite their mere flank of 3 valves, possess strong privileged tones that compliment the big, round, warm sound that these horns produce in the lower range.

Perhaps it's a horn-by-horn, design-by-design, player-by-player preference. Chacun à son goût.

[Steve Marcus]

Low Db plays fine as a false tone 23 - and how often do you REALLY play a low Db outside of your own low register exercises?

The low Db on the Neptune plays in tune, more freely, and sounds more clear played 1-2-3-4-5 than as a privileged note fingered 2-3. Nice for Prokofiev, Marty. Admittedly, this is not the case with other tubas whose privileged notes at that pitch (or the B natural on BBb horns) play with more projection than the 5-valve combination. It all depends upon the individual horn and, perhaps, the individual player.

I know some brass band players who have been lusting after original York Monster BBb tubas because, despite their flank of merely 3 valves, possess strong privileged tones that compliment the big, round, warm sound that these horns produce in the lower range.

Perhaps it's a horn-by-horn, design-by-design, player-by-player preference. Chacun à son goût.

[MartyNeilan]

Low Db plays fine as a false tone 23 - and how often do you REALLY play a low Db outside of your own low register exercises?

The low Db on the Neptune plays in tune, more freely, and sounds more clear played 1-2-3-4-5 than as a privileged note fingered 2-3. Nice for Prokofiev, Marty. Admittedly, this is not the case with other tubas whose privileged notes at that pitch (or the B natural on BBb horns) play with more projection than the 5-valve combination. It all depends upon the individual horn and, perhaps, the individual player.

I know some brass band players who have been lusting after original York Monster BBb tubas because, despite their flank of merely 3 valves, possess strong privileged tones that compliment the big, round, warm sound that these horns produce in the lower range.

Perhaps it's a horn-by-horn, design-by-design, player-by-player preference. Chacun à son goût.

Thanks, Steve.
In context, I was talking about my specific horn, and how I have not missed the 5th valve on it during my ongoing rework of it the past two years. You are right that it varies greatly horn by horn - you mention the brass band loving some of the 3 valve Monsters for their false tones - the compensating horns they normally would use probably have the least accessible false tones of any horn. (Probably due to all the compensating crooks, or is it the nooks and crannies?)

[Lectron]

Has anyone touted the BBb bat and compared it to the CC?

Without commenting the obvious difference in pich, how does the BBb slot, how is it in 'ease to play'
I feel very often a CC is closer to the Eb in ease of playing despite the BBb only being 2 feet longer

[Michael Bush]

CC ... ease of playing ... BBb ... 2 feet longer

That is one of the most straightforwardly insightful things I have read on this board. No wonder. That explains more than one thing.

[Lectron]

I am sorry if I somehow offended someones intelligence by my simple post, but the reason for the question.

For ensemble-work and wind band I would prefer the CC as most of the ones I've tried plays more freely throughout the register
For brassband, I have no problems really playing the CC, but. As the tuba play transposed with a separate Eb and Bb part
one tend to get some intonation issues...and also very often funny fingerings as brass bands scores are often in very flat keys.
So...I'd prefer a BBb there.....If it has the same qualities as the CC

[tubajon]

My opinion means nothing. I liked the 3/4 BBb better than all the rest.

[J.c. Sherman]

Okay, here's my take...

Dick was kind enough to bring a BAT by as he passed through town, along with the Eb (I'm in the market for both); by that I mean he actually brought it to me (thanks!). I didn't have much time with it, but I had about 40 minutes in a choir room, 20 minutes on a stage (unaccompanied) and an hour at home late at night with both.

First and foremost, this is a hell of a deal for a new 6/4. At the prices offered, it's surprising, actually. It's worth grabbing one of these instead of a mystery used 345 or older BAT, as this is every bit as nice.

I don't thing Dick would kill me if I mentioned that much of the guts do look like a "chop job", with tapered ferules and other slightly awkward wraps. But the soldering was good, slide alignment good, valves were dependable (save for the fifth, but I didn't have rotor oil handy) and the horn was straight and basically well made. Kudos.

Second, every 6/4 is quirky. That said, this is less so than any I've played in CC. It has a generally reliable scale, nothing stands out as a "what the hell?!?" and the full range is there. I certainly had brain training issues with the 5th; if it's there, my brain wants Db as 235. But I pulled out 4 and stuck with a flat 4 as I was taught for Alex playing. The first valve isn't flat, though in the long run a 4-valver with a shorter 1st might provide for very flexible playing. But the D is playable on the staff, I think, but I played E and Eb 12/23.

Great low range, but less so when the 4th valve was depressed. Certainly well within the realm of playability, but I and the Cleveland POPS' regular tubist both agreed it had some "BAT Vagueness" going on. Played 1&3, and G will remove fillings from the teenagers in the nosebleed section. 4, and you'll work harder... but only a little. 2&4 was fine.

One test of a very good sounding instrument is if people who you know don't give a damn or hate tuba like you suddenly. A percussionist who could care less came up to me and said "buy that". I was not feeling like I was on my game as I was trying a new horn; but his words have weight. My wife said to do the same thing, as did others. While I didn't feel the horn in my chest as much as my former 164 Alex, it was QUITE a present and lyrical sound, very telling of decent blending BAT. Prokofiev 5 was a treat.

I would advocate for soldered on valve threads to make it easier to get the valve caps on... it's a pet peeve of mine and while Yamaha and others don't bother, it's something which could make it easier. This horn was a prototype, though (pictured earlier in the thread) so it could very well be anomalous. I would personally prefer an independent 5th, but I really don't care that much. I'd also like a slightly faster 1st slide, which would further obviate me giving a damn about the 5th location or even its existence. A sturdier thumb would make me happy, but I tend to haul a$$ on mine. It's not a very heavy horn, physically, and it's comfortable. I'd prefer a slightly smaller receiver.

This is at the start of my search, and I had a great experience with the Eb as well... Dick has set the bar very high for my search; and you're not going to get a better sounding instrument for more money. You want BAT and do want to spend $35,000... get this, because I doubt the YammyYork or a Yorkbrunner is going to sound better.

I've still got other axes to try, but this was a fun way to start the search!

J.c.S.

[bobn]

J.c.S., thanks for the review.

Would you be willing to share more of your thoughts on the EEb? How does it compare to others: YEB321, MW2141, Kanstul, Miraphone Star, Besson?

Thanks,

Bob