MidWest horns - any impressions?

[Mitch]

I was able to try out some things at MidWest yesterday and was a little intrigued by a couple of them.

I thought the Miraphone Seigfried production model was still pretty much what I'd hoped it would be. Sehr gut.

I was a little impressed by the St. Petersburg prototype 4/4 piston CC (4+1). Had a nice little feel to it. Slides were too long on the 3rd and 5th valves, but they know that on the US end, and the linkage/thumbring combo for 5 was wacky, which we discussed. They'd already made a temporary fix to what it was out of the box. But if they're able to fix it, I actually was a little surprised by it and thought, at ca. $3,500 I think it was, it ain't a bad student horn/1st CC or even something for the more serious amateur.

I posted my thoughts about the Barth/BMB new 6/4 prototype under that thread.

Mr. P pointed out a new model B&S - the MRP-7, I think it's called. It's a rotary PT-6 with a Fafner bell, and a couple other mods, I guess, but it has a great feel, I thought. Mr. P said he was going for a CC with a feel like a German BBb, and I think it darn well hit's the mark. People have their own ideas about the CC vs. BBb sounds, so I'll leave that discussion for another thread, but it's a horn that I find I'd like to spend more time with. I've never really been a rotor person, but it would have me considering it. Fun horn.

Anyone else?

[Jeff Keller]

I'll bite. Btw, it was great to see you again.

I have to agree that the hottest ticket was the Miraphone 6/4 BBb Seigrfried. I was completely shocked by the ease of playing with this beautiful horn.

I loved being able to try all of the new MW tubas that have came out over the last couple of years. A handmade 6450 (I've only tried production models), 5450RA, 2250, and the 3450. My second favorite is the 3450! I think that one of these will grace my arsenal soon. MW's 2250 and Willson's new compact F's took the top spot for the Bass Tubas. I apologize for not trying any Eb's.

Several chinese horns popped up. Tuba Exchange had their poor imitation PT-6 among others. Dick Barth brought along his BAT+ as well as a few others (very fun to try and tame that beast). Besson had the updated 995 CC (Nirchsl clone) made in Gerestried, that was a very pleasant player.

If you have the means, brave the winterpocalypse and come try some great horns and some great pizza.

Cheers,

Jeff

[Jeff Keller]

Where's the like button again?

[Bob Kolada]

I really liked (almost equally!) the St Pete Eb, the Firebird, small Willson Eb, and the 1281. I found the Pete to play a bit more easily than the Star- better low range, almost plays like a piston horn. The Firebird is better built but the other ain't bad.

I LOVED the Conn/Greenhoe bass trombone!

[TubaNerd88]

I've been all over the exhibits since day 1, but haven't gotten the chance to go to all of the instrument vendors yet, but here are the horns that have impressed me the most so far:

Big Mouth Brass 6/4 CC

I got the chance to tryout the 4/4 CC and the F at the DC Conference back in January of this year, and they blew me away, so I had a good feeling about the Big Bertha of the bunch. I definitely was not disappointed. Very easy to play, consistent from top to bottom, and reminded me of that classic American York sound. Richard Barth has done an awesome job with the design and quality of these horns.

B&S 6/4 MRP-CC

I remember Mr. P talking about B&S working on a rotary 6/4 CC last year when he was at the factory. He wanted the color of a BBb, but the ease of a CC. He definitely hit the nail on the head with this one. I almost mistook it for a PT-6, but after closer inspection, it's slightly bigger than a PT-6, has a wider bottom bow, and has a much bigger throat. This was the horn I kept going back to constantly throughout the day. Extremely easy to play, consistent from top to bottom, and it still has that classic German B&S rotary sound. I'm very tempted to get me one of these horns in the near future whenever they hit the US.

Meinl Weston 196 "Fasolt" BBb

I've never played on one of these horns before until this week. I was definitely impressed. Just as easy to play as the Fafner model, but with a little bit more presence to the sound. I would love to have one of these if I were in an orchestra doing works by Prokofiev, Strauss, or Mahler. Great horn!

Miraphone "Siegfried" 6/4 BBb

Probably the horn that shocked me the most. Super easy to play, consistent through all registers, and every note shook the ground. Again, I would love to have this horn for works by Prokofiev, Strauss, or Mahler. Miraphone has done an awesome job with this horn.

I still need to head to the Adams, Willson, Tuba Exchange, and Wessex booths, so I may or may not have an update to this before the end of the week. Enjoying my time here at Midwest so far!

[AHynds]

The description of the new B&S CC tuba has me salivating just thinking about it. I love my PT-6, and the possibility of having a similar horn that sounds like a big BBb rotary horn and plays like a CC is great (to me, at least). Also, I'm curious to hear if anyone else has some info/impressions about the new smaller Willson F tuba. It sounds like an interesting horn, but I haven't heard a whole lot about it.

[Steve Marcus]

At the end of the day (literally and figuratively) at Midwest, there were two contrabass tubas that I would want to play again...and again. They are quite different from each other, but each has its own appeal.

I made it a point to visit Dick Barth first because "the gauntlet had been thrown." Dick knows that he has a winner, and he's willing to stack the new Big Mouth 6/4 against any other 6/4 horn.

My first pass at the horn was a "get acquainted" session; I became aware of its idiosyncrasies and how to deal with them, etc. Despite some questions left to be answered upon my second visit with the horn, I was impressed that this is a real contender.

Then I went to Miraphone and sat down with the Siegfried. Yes, it is as beautiful looking and playing a horn as I remembered from its prototype that was displayed in 2010. It's big but very easy to hold. Its tone is warm and even through the range. The entire compass of the range is very easy to play. The horn felt lighter than the Big Mouth, which is indicative of its dimensions and its handmade bows. I felt that, with practice and just a little more concentration on my part of proper use of air, I could make this horn do anything that you'd want a tuba to do.

Later in the day, I played the new B&S. I suppose that if I had been a regular PT-6 player, I might have been more bowled over about this horn. It's quite nice and, in the right hands, could be extremely expressive. I would just need more time to know how to take advantage of its capabilities.

I briefly played the 3050S and 3100 to reacquaint myself with them. As I was taking the 3050S off the shelf, I had a brief conversation with a tuba student who I met months ago in Chicago who is now a freshman in college. He's going to sell his 3050S because he is so impressed with the Big Mouth 6/4. Quite a statement.

I wanted to play the 6450/2 and the 196 (which was mislabeled as a 195) but they were not available at the times that I passed the MW booth.

The new Wessex CC and BBb 4/4 tubas are quite credible horns, especially considering the competitive price and fine service available from Jonathan and Andy. Jonathan said that the horn in his booth that was garnering the most attention was the Bubbie, perhaps because of its novelty.

Late in the day (not too late, as they closed the exhibits at 3:00 this day instead of 5:00 on the other days), after attending clinics by Gaudete Brass/Cedille Records, Provost Professor Dan Perantoni, and an "ad hoc" mini-concert by Axiom Brass in one of the booths, I returned to the Gemeinhardt booth to play the 4/4 CC first and then the 6/4 to really assess what one gains with the larger instrument. Now that I knew what to expect in ergonomics, etc., I really began to appreciate how the tone of the 6/4 tuba resonates in the player's chest and, from the looks of those who were watching as I played, the sound emanating from the bell. Once in a while I'd forget about the dependent 5th valve and go to 235 fingering by habit. But I realized that the only reason that we use that fingering combination is because we learned that it was available on our horns. It is just as easy to unlearn a particular fingering as it is to go from a 4-valve BBb horn to a 3-valve BBb horn. For its sound, its feel, and its price, I would happily unlearn 235 if I owned that tuba.

To top off the day, I had a final go at the Siegfried. It definitely has a more refined response than the Big Mouth, meaning that the latter horn requires a bit more work/air. For that small degree of extra refinement in the Miraphone, one must pay more than twice as much as the Big Mouth 6/4. Both are worth consideration if you're in the market for a 6/4 tuba.

[bort]

What's the street price on a Sigfried? Sounds awesome!

[Steve Marcus]

$17,000 was quoted as an approximate street price for the Miraphone 98 Siegfried.

[Wyvern]

For your interest are some picture from Chicago and the Midwest.

I have really enjoyed spending the last two weeks in the wonderful USA, being at times overwhelmed by the hospitality of the people. It was great to meet some more TubeNeters at the Midwest, see what nice people you are and what impressive players.

At the Midwest on the Wessex booth the Bubbie did indeed attract the most attention, but I was also surprised by the high interest in our new fibreglass BBb contra illustrated below.

It was also incredible while in Chicago to attend CSO concert and hear Gene Pokorny playing not one, but two different contrabass tubas (Fafner for Shostakovich Festival Overture & York CC for new trumpet concerto and Tchaikovsky Manfred). I did think if today was the end of the world, nice way to spend my last evening

Tomorrow I look forward to participating in Chicago Tuba Christmas (look out for the Bubbie) before (hopefully!!!) getting home in time for Christmas Day with my gorgeous wife back in England.

A Happy and Blessed Christmas to you all!

[JohnSzkutko]

I have to "niche" this thread a bit (selfishly of course)....

Did anyone who tried Siegfried, play a Fasolt/Fafner that day too?

[TubaNerd88]

Can anyone given some more info the new B&S CC tuba? Sounds pretty interesting. How would it compare to the PT6?

It plays like a PT-6, but it's easier to play, has a little bit bigger sound, and a little more depth and presence. It looks like a PT-6, but it's slightly bigger, has a wider bottom bow, and a much bigger throat. I loved it!

[joh_tuba]

Sounds to me like the Perantucci line needed an answer to the Thor to regain some lost sales. The attribute of the Thor that most drives sales is the 'BBb hammer sound'.

I've not yet played the new B&S CC so this is purely conjecture. The PT-6 is remarkably in tune with even response and sound... one of the more 'perfect' tubas.. in the same vein as the venerated 186. I'll remain skeptical of any major redesigns until I've played it myself.

[TubaNerd88]

I currently own a Thor myself, and I can tell you that, from my experience with the 6/4 CC from B&S, they do not play the same. The sound is bigger, yes, but it does not have that "hammer sound" that has made the Thor so popular. It plays consistent, the notes are even throughout the register, and intonation is spot-on. You can get pretty nasty with it if you want to, but it's not as easy to do as it is on the Thor.

I can understand some people being skeptical of the horn especially since most people have not tried it out yet, as it was just brought into the public for the first time at the Midwest Clinic. I imagine it will be at future workshops though.

[TinyTubist97]

Got to try out almost all of the tubas there. I really liked the B&S F tubas, I liked the Pt-6 but I wasn't thinking about it for the next few days. The Meinl Weston Baer was awkward to hold but I would deal with for the sound that came out of the bell plus I could use my stand. The Meinl F tubas didn't stand out to me too much especially after trying out the Miraphone Petrushka which pretty much, along with the Baer, stole the show for me. I can't describe the low range (including low C) on this tuba! When playing the VW on it in the prelude on the passage starting on low F in the beginning it was like I got the resonance of a BBb or CC tuba (trust me, Ive learned the VW on BBb, CC, and F!) but without the clumsiness. I also liked the Shires and Edwards Bass and Tenor t-bones. Especially after playing on a school bass and a pbone. And almost forgot, the big mouth brass 6/4 was astounding! It was great and the dependent valve didnt make a difference to me (though my experience with 6/4s is limited).

[cbettler]

I was genuinely impressed by the overall quality of the tubas available at Midwest. It has been a long time since I've had the opportunity to try out a bunch of tubas, and for me this was my first time with several of the horns that are newer to the market. I think we are very fortunate to have such a variety of excellent tubas available to us. The offerings of Miraphone and Meinl Weston in particular were really outstanding. I used a Bobo Solo mouthpiece for all bass tubas, and both a CanBrass Arnold Jacobs and a Parke Ofenloch for contrabass tubas.

I spent most of the morning playing F tubas, and the afternoon playing BBbs and CCs (sorry, I did not get around to trying out any Ebs). Overall my favorite F was the MW 2250. The low range was solid, while the middle and upper register gave me a slightly warmer sound than I tend to get on my 822. It had great response and evenness of sound and pitch throughout the entire range, from pedals to screamers. A close second was the Miraphone Petruschka, which for me had an even better response in the low range than the 2250. For me however, the tone was a bit more rigid and one-dimensional. Overall I would still be happy with both tubas. I also really liked the PT-18, which had one of the best upper registers of any tuba I've ever played, and great response and tone in the middle and low registers as well.

For rotary Fs, I don't know what it was, but for me the PT-15 and JBL Classic at the Custom Booth did not seem like great representations of those tubas. I have played several PT-15s that were beautiful instruments and among the best Fs I have played, and this did not seem to be one of them. This was my first JBL, and it did not work well for me. I was also slightly underwhelmed by the regular Miraphone Bel Canto (181), finding the "solo" model (381) and the Firebird to be much better instruments.

I was thoroughly impressed with the MW CC tuba line. The Baer (6450/2) was definitely a monster horn with a huge sound while also very easy to play and control. I don't know that I would spend 25K for one, but it is unquestionably top of the line. The "Thor" was great as well, and I like the bigger bell on the newer models a whole lot. The real surprise for me was the 3450. While not tiny, it is definitely compact. However, it plays a ton bigger than its size suggests, and was (in my opinion), the best CC tuba I played all day. I thought the "Tuono" was okay, but I would definitely go with the piston version any day of the week. Miraphone had some great CCs as well, the stand-out for me being the "Bruckner" (291). It gives a great sound and would definitely lay down the foundation for a large ensemble. The 1293 was the first of its kind that I had played, and for me I prefer the 1292, although it was definitely a nice tuba. The 6/4 monster from BMB was a lot of fun. The sound was enormous, and the horn spoke easily in all registers. I would need some time to work out the intonation discrepancies, but for the price this is definitely worth considering. Unfortunately I did not make it back to the Custom booth, but it sounds like I really missed out on the new modified PT-6.

Finally, BBb tubas. I only played two, but wow! I am strongly considering switching my contrabass to a BBb. The best tuba I played all day was the Miraphone "Siegfried." This horn was amazing, capable of a tremendous amount of sound, and able to take everything I could give it. Equally, the response at the softer dynamics was wonderful and made the instrument easy to control. Intonation seemed spot on, and I loved this tuba. The MW "Fasolt" (196) was also a stellar instrument. It is gigantic as well, making me (I'm 6'4") seem small. However ergonomically it was still easy to hold. Great projection, but the response was not quite as quick as the "Siegfried." Both tubas were easily competitive with the (high) quality of the CCs.

All of that is just my opinion, and what worked for me. Again, I thought overall the quality of available tubas was outstanding. Also, thanks so much to all of the people working the various booths, who were all very friendly, knowledgeable, and patient.

[Mitch]

Yeah, joh_tuba, you'd be correct in noting your conjecture. The MRP-7 is nothing like a Thor. I own a Thor. The MRP-7 isn't even trying to be anything like a Thor. I had a chance to discuss it sufficiently and thoroughly with Mr. P - he and I were the only ones at the Custom booth when I was trying it.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the goal was a big rotary CC that had more of a feel of a BBb - those are the words as stated by Mr P. (And the discussion we had was quite genuine, so the BS meter never went off, nor did he say anything that I would approach interpreting as, "Yeah, man, we had to do something to keep up with the Thor.") It's not been that long since I was the owner of a 6/4 BBb (the Martin Monster sold on this board about a year ago), so I'd say mission accomplished. It still has a great core sound without being too woofy, as some large BBb's can be. The feel is different, the response is different. All good, but it just wouldn't even cross my mind to compare it to a Thor. Apples and pomegranates. It's different from a regular PT-6, as well. I was never a huge fan of the PT-6 (just the rotary); didn't think it was bad, it just wasn't my thing. The MRP version, though, ...if I win the lottery, I'm buying one. I wouldn't drop the Thor to get it, but if I had the cash to buy a bunch of horns just because I want them, it'd be on the list.

(I am not now, nor have I ever been, in any way affiliated with B&S, its partners, owners, or assigns.)

[NDSPTuba]

Anybody happen to have a pic of the new B&S 6/4 CC. I'd love to see it. As my internet search has come up fruitless.

[TubaNerd88]

Here's a picture of me trying out the MRP-CC Tuba. Sorry I don't have another shot of it, but you can somewhat get an idea of how the horn looks a little bigger than a PT-6.