Small(-er?) mouthpiece for Conn Eb Helicon?

[mwpfoot]

Hi everyone. I mostly play trombone but thru this forum I obtained a Conn Eb Helicon from TubaTinker for New Orleans brass fun. It has been a blast! My only goal with the helicon is to play funk and 2-beat stuff; there are no concertos in my future. There won't even be any sheet music. To learn I just pull up YouTube videos of good stuff and play along until I get it.

Way back when, Dan kindly sent a mouthpiece at my last minute request but it is unmarked. A friend let me play various Helleberg 'pieces, but it was shortly after I got the helicon and I couldn't tell any difference between them and mine. Recently, I figured I need a point of reference so I got a Faxx 18 to start with.

I really like the flat rim of the 18. Other than that, it seems HUGE to my trombone chops. It's all relative but I play trombone WAY more than tuba. The unmarked 'piece is a little smaller but it has a sharper rim. The horn has modern sousaphone bits, fwiw.

Yeah yeah yeah I can practice up the 18 (or whatever) and get more comfortable with it. Understood. Still, is there a 'piece out there that may more naturally match my Eb horn, intended genre, and trombone leanings a little bit better? Something smaller, flat rim, not $$$?

[tofu]

Kelley makes very inexpensive plastic mouthpieces which you can often find on here used for $15-25. They work well for use on an instrument that sees a lot of movement and for playing outside -especially in the cold and if it hits the ground it won't be damaged. And they are feather light -why haul more weight around then you have to. I use a 25 for my helicon, which might be more to the liking of somebody used to trombone mouthpieces - you will find it to be smaller than the 18. They offer them in the 18, 25 and Kelleyberg sizes.

[mwpfoot]

I have a Kelly 12c for my trombone and I found it a bit dull when contrasted with its metal equivalent. It's not my normal size, however, and there's not much practical call for it around here (it's 50F out, BRRRRRR!), and that's just my impression from behind the horn knowing what it was, so I really didn't give it a comprehensive or fair test. But that's why I went with Faxx as I started my tuba mouthpiece collection.

All that said, I'll put a 25 of some manufacture on my list for consideration and thanks!

Is there any place where the rim contours of these various pieces are described beyond "medium" (or similar)?

[Bob Kolada]

Do you want to crank?

[mwpfoot]

Do you want to crank?

I just want to be LOUD!

[opus37]

Consider a 24AW. There are various brands. I think Bloke had a few that he was selling inexpensively a while back. Big wide rim like the 18, but smaller. It should be loud. Don't expect much for great sound, but I gathered you weren't rally concerned with that. The Denis Wick 3l should also work, but that will be more expensive. It will give good tone.

[mwpfoot]

Consider a 24AW. There are various brands. I think Bloke had a few that he was selling inexpensively a while back. Big wide rim like the 18, but smaller. It should be loud. Don't expect much for great sound, but I gathered you weren't rally concerned with that. The Denis Wick 3l should also work, but that will be more expensive. It will give good tone.

My LOUD comment was merely a poke at the Loud company's marketing materials in response to Bob, I hope it wasn't taken too seriously. (And while some of their pieces look interesting for my situation, I'm not yet $150 interested as a doubler who is just learning the difference between an 18 and a 25.)

From my perspective, great tone is both subjective and context dependent. While I'm not that interested in being sonorous on tuba, true, I do want to sound great on one and three and on funk lines. I saw that Faxx has a 24AW so that's now on my radar as well, especially given the previous recommend of the 25. I'll try to borrow some of these more common sizes through tuba friends.

It's a little strange to me that in my searches here, Eb tubas seems to get the same general recommends as others in the family. My trombone mouthpiece choices are bore-driven: 2G on bass (kinda small, yeah), 5G on large bore (common), 6/12AL on medium bore (common), 7c on small bore (kinda big, yeah), ... they are pairings. Not so much for tubas? Or just kind of difficult to make a blind/deaf recommendation?

[pjv]

Very good point. But....it's complicated...

Suffice to say that YOUR requirements (a trombonist who wants to play bass lines on an Eb) may not necessarily be satisfied with what other Eb tubists use.

I do agree that Kelly is a great alternative. It's cheep and the dull sound (less highs) can work to your advantage playing bass lines on an Eb.

And now for something which may or may not workout; ever consider a contrabass tbn or cimbasso mpc? The rim is somewhere in between a standard tuba mpc and a bass tbn mpc, usually with a deep cup. I've known trombone players who have done this before, and there are certainly more than enough tubists who play cimbasso on shallow tuba size rimed mpc's.

Good luck.
Pat

[Donn]

It's a little strange to me that in my searches here, Eb tubas seems to get the same general recommends as others in the family. My trombone mouthpiece choices are bore-driven: 2G on bass (kinda small, yeah), 5G on large bore (common), 6/12AL on medium bore (common), 7c on small bore (kinda big, yeah), ... they are pairings. Not so much for tubas? Or just kind of difficult to make a blind/deaf recommendation?

There's something to it - indeed, you can sometimes see "F/EB" or "bass tuba" in the manufacturer's description of a mouthpiece.

Would you say the trombone mouthpieces you're using have flat rims? I'm wondering what you're looking for there, as in reality it's more a question of how round they are and how tight the inner radius is ("bite".)

Know that there's an unusual degree of controversy over the 24AW, some think it's ideal and others think it's the worst mouthpiece ever, so ... go ahead and get one if you want, but don't stop there. I like the Schilke 62 and Denis Wick 5L, but don't know of any inexpensive knock-offs.

[GC]

A Conn 7B helleberg might do well. It's a bit smaller in diameter and a bit shallower, but it's still definitely a tuba mouthpiece, not a transplanted trombone mp.

[Donn]

(Re Conn Giant Bass) Yes - mine, anyway, is a medium small, relatively shallow, funnel shaped mouthpiece with a relatively large throat, great for bass tuba. More or less continued as the Conn 3, but once that was discontinued, as far as I know, nothing like it has been made since. In size, it seems to me to be between the DW 5 and Schilke 62 in width; much shallower than the DW 5 and more funnel shaped than the 62.

The 7B is in this family but a step up in size, and does have what I would call a flat rim.

[mwpfoot]

Thanks all for the discussion, I'm learning!

This is probably pretty close to what came with the horn originally. Might be worth a try.

Would an old "period" piece like this fit the modern Conn sousaphone bits in my setup? I was getting the sense that the original Eb helicon necks/shanks would have been closer to bass trombone size. Although maybe that discussion was about the older European horns, not the early 20th century Conns?

[mwpfoot]

Would you say the trombone mouthpieces you're using have flat rims? I'm wondering what you're looking for there, as in reality it's more a question of how round they are and how tight the inner radius is ("bite".)

To my chops re: rims there is sharp and uncomfortable and everything else. Traditional Bach rims are all very comfy to me on trombone. They aren't exactly flat but there are definitely sharper products out there (and I generally don't like them.)

So it doesn't have to be board flat, just not a pokey rim (like my unmarked piece.)

[mwpfoot]

And now for something which may or may not workout; ever consider a contrabass tbn or cimbasso mpc? The rim is somewhere in between a standard tuba mpc and a bass tbn mpc, usually with a deep cup. I've known trombone players who have done this before, and there are certainly more than enough tubists who play cimbasso on shallow tuba size rimed mpc's.

This is an interesting option. Re: shanks, to go from a smaller piece to a bigger horn, is an adapter needed, or do they build the smaller piece up a bit with teflon tape, or does it fit?

An adapter, if it exists, would be additionally nice to get a smidge more length on the neck (if it doesn't disrupt the overall zen too much.)

[Donn]

(Re Conn Giant again) - For all I know, they may have made the same mouthpiece with a variety of shanks, but mine is a large shank, same as your Bach 18. Who knows what you get with a contrabass trombone mouthpiece - you'd want to check that out on a per-mouthpiece basis, as I think it varies between instruments - but honestly, there are plenty of good tuba mouthpieces, so I can't see why this would be worth even thinking about.

I use it in my '20s vintage Pan American (Conn) Eb Giant Bass, but there's nothing on it that indicates it's for Eb tubas - I think that back in the day, that was a big mouthpiece.

So - when you say "flat" you mean "rounded"? We'd better straighten this out, because there does seem to be some potential for confusion. The place where I think anyone could find something "sharp" on the business end of a mouthpiece is the bite, the radius between the cup and the rim. That and rim per se are separate parameters to some extent, but if anything the sharper edges naturally tend to be found on a flatter rim shape. I have never seen a mouthpiece where the "top" of the rim is sharp - they're more rounded, or more flat, but not sharp.

Here's a picture from a Tubenet member who offers high quality stainless Helleberg copies, showing a rounded rim (left) and a sharp/flat rim (right.) Unfortunately the photography makes the rounded rim look a little angular, but it's the best I could find in a couple minutes search. The Sidey rim is exceptionally flat, most `flat' rims are a little more rounded.

[mwpfoot]

Who knows what you get with a contrabass trombone mouthpiece - you'd want to check that out on a per-mouthpiece basis, as I think it varies between instruments - but honestly, there are plenty of good tuba mouthpieces, so I can't see why this would be worth even thinking about.

Just because I've been playing trombone for 25 years and now I'm tuba doubling for fun. I'll try rigging up my biggest bass bone 'piece with teflon tape and to see what happens. Maybe I'll be lightning quick and holy smokes! Probably I'll be wheezy and I'll laugh at myself.

So - when you say "flat" you mean "rounded"? We'd better straighten this out, because there does seem to be some potential for confusion. The place where I think anyone could find something "sharp" on the business end of a mouthpiece is the bite, the radius between the cup and the rim.

Split the difference?

The Bach 18 has considerably flatter/broader rim than the unmarked piece I have and it's more comfortable. Just... awfully big. The unmarked piece could very well be an oddball, it was thrown in for free.

I think I'll have to try more tuba 'pieces to really parametrize this stuff. We're probably a bit too deep for my experience here.

[pjv]

The reason to consider a contra mpc is because of the rim size; it's smaller than a tuba mpc but still larger than a bass bone mpc. Since you know what a bass bone mpc feels like this "might" feel more like home.

Or it might not.

Correct me if I'm wrong (anybody), but I thought that the Conn helicon was originally a smaller set up (neck&bits) than the monster Eb sousaphones are. The fact that Dan set you up with modern neck&bits is either because he's very considerate (which he most definitely is) or that they were lost in the folds of time. Since that size neck&bits (if I'm correct about this) isn't in use anymore, finding a historically correct replacement for your helicon could be difficult.

A Bach 1 1/2 probably won't do the trick and you'll feel kind of lost on the instrument. Some cimbasso mpc's should fit your horn without a tape or any other adapter. If this is also true for contra mpc's; dunno.

I once asked members of this board for suggestions on were to start with cimbasso mpc's, some of which were;
Kanstul 2A
Bach CB30
Schilke 59 and 60
Laskey 30F
Yamaha 67B4

I'll PM you with the wise words that accompanied a larger version of this list.
Again, these are for cimbassi and contra's, but maybe not too far off the mark.
Good luck.
Pat

[mwpfoot]

Thanks everyone for the replies here, and a few emails too.

I've ordered a Kelly 25 to have another (cheap) point of reference on the actual-tuba-mouthpiece spectrum. If it's just right, well there it is, I'll probably track one something comparable in metal.

I will also give my largest bass bone 'piece a try and then make a judgement call on whether the cimbasso route is worth pursuing.

And I'll ask my tuba buddies about their mouthpiece, especially if it's something mentioned here, ... they are usually more into talking beer than gear, but who knows?

Cheers!

[Donn]

And I'll ask my tuba buddies about their mouthpiece, especially if it's something mentioned here, ... they are usually more into talking beer than gear, but who knows?

This could be a big mistake. If they aren't on Tubenet, they probably don't know anything!