Back in the day ... [haha old people]

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:55 am

tuba4sissies wrote:Would that mean EEB and a CC tuba have the same fingerings?

Same fingering pattern--yes. Same fingerings--no.

Tubaryan12 · Post by **Tubaryan12** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:56 am

A good deal of the notes if you ignore the clef would be fingered the same in common band music keys(1-3 flats). For example, a bass clef Eb looks like a treble clef C. On Bb trumpet, treble clef C is open and so is Eb on an Eb tuba.

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:58 am

Eb fingerings for treble clef = CC fingerings in bass clef. (apart for the 3 flats difference) [edit] What was I thinking?

And I haven't had one of those funny Dutch cigars in years

Maybe the idea that Ebs are smaller and supposedly easier to play and handled by kids played a role?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:30 am

corbasse wrote:Eb fingerings for treble clef = CC fingerings in bass clef. (apart for the 3 flats difference)
Maybe the idea that Ebs are smaller and supposedly easier to play and handled by kids played a role?

When I see a middle C (1st ledger below the staff) on an Eb Bass TC part, I play it open, and my instrument sounds Eb.

So I should play the Eb below the bass clef on CC open?

What kind of CC tuba you got there, fellah?

OTOH, Eb fingerings in TC = trumpet fingerings = Eb alto fingerings = Eb BC fingerings (with a key signature adjustment).

Carroll · Post by **Carroll** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:31 am

People also played E-flat alto horns (many older arrangements still have parts) and this can be traced backed to the town band tradition that was popular at the turn of the century - the last one. In fact, try to find a reproduction of a 1900 era Sears and Roebuck catalog to see how many of these horns were available.

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:39 am

Chuck(G) wrote:
corbasse wrote:Eb fingerings for treble clef = CC fingerings in bass clef. (apart for the 3 flats difference)
Maybe the idea that Ebs are smaller and supposedly easier to play and handled by kids played a role?
When I see a middle C (1st ledger below the staff) on an Eb Bass TC part, I play it open, and my instrument sounds Eb.

So I should play the Eb below the bass clef on CC open?

What kind of CC tuba you got there, fellah?

OTOH, Eb fingerings in TC = trumpet fingerings = Eb alto fingerings = Eb BC fingerings (with a key signature adjustment).

Forget wat I said. Not enough sleep, nor enough coffee. (yet)

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:54 am

When I was in High School (early 1970s) I started on a Bbb tuba, but one of the other players was started on an Eb sousaphone. I believe it was because he was transitioning from trumpet and the band director thought it would be easier for him, while I was adding tuba to my cello playing and already was comfortable with bass (and tenor) clef.

TMurphy · Post by **TMurphy** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:14 pm

Well...I started on BBb, and have since switched to Eb....what does that make me????

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:29 pm

If you look at brass band setups (American and British), you find a nice pattern -- Eb soprano and Bb cornets, Bb Flugel, Eb alto/tenor horn, Bb trombone, baritone and euphonium, Eb bass and BBb bass.

See the pattern? Eb, Bb, Eb, Bb, Eb, BBb

All of this follows the old saxhorn family pattern and makes perfect sense if what one wants is a nice full sound. Examining old 19th century scores, it looks as if the BBb bass was either optional or unusual in US bands. It makes sense--an Eb bass completes the pattern better and is more portable for marching.

I don't think that BBb basses were really popular in the US until Sousa began touring with his big horns.

What's strange now is that US concert band music (particularly that used in schools) doesn't even acknowledge the existence of bass tubas. To my ears, this leaves a "hole" in the acoustic spectrum (unless it's to be filled by the bari sax). Indeed, many band directors aren't even aware of the existence of the Eb bass tuba or think of them as quaint antiques.

OTOH, brass band music uses the Eb bass to great advantage, using it as a voice where a lighter bass line is desired or pairing it off with either the contra tubas or the euphonium.

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:46 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:If you look at brass band setups (American and British), you find a nice pattern -- Eb soprano and Bb cornets, Bb Flugel, Eb alto/tenor horn, Bb trombone, baritone and euphonium, Eb bass and BBb bass.

See the pattern? Eb, Bb, Eb, Bb, Eb, BBb

All of this follows the old saxhorn family pattern and makes perfect sense if what one wants is a nice full sound.
.....

What's strange now is that US concert band music (particularly that used in schools) doesn't even acknowledge the existence of bass tubas. To my ears, this leaves a "hole" in the acoustic spectrum (unless it's to be filled by the bari sax). Indeed, many band directors aren't even aware of the existence of the Eb bass tuba or think of them as quaint antiques.

OTOH, brass band music uses the Eb bass to great advantage, using it as a voice where a lighter bass line is desired or pairing it off with either the contra tubas or the euphonium.

I'm slowly starting to recognize my parts as being US or European on sight. We tend to use seperate Eb and BBb parts in wind bands, and the BBbs almost exlusively cover the "basement"(Sounding Eb and up, but hardly ever above 2nd space C) wheras the Ebs do the lighter, more virtuoso stuff. US arrangements tend to float inbetween the 2.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:20 pm

tuba4sissies wrote:...... but who started on a Eb?

I did! It was 1954 and as I recall, there wasn't a choice. It was Eb or nothing. I learned to play BBb in high school because by the 60's they had already phased out the Eb horns. It didn't really cause me any problems until I enlisted in the Navy in 1964. They didn't have Eb horns at Great Lakes so I took care of the music for the dance band for three months. Not really a 'problem' as I got to dance with the girls while the other poor saps played their horns!

At a command band in Pensacola, they had an old Eb helicon so I played that while stationed there. The next step was playing an Eb with a brass band while stationed in Scotland. Of course, THAT was treble clef... which was another learning experience.

I still play Eb but have added BBb and CC to my qualifications. The fingering progression is the same for all tubas... it just starts at a different open bugle. Today... playing different key tubas tends to keep my feeble mind alive. Also... anyone who thinks all Eb horns are small, ... have a good look at the King I'm playing in my avatar!

Yeah... I'm old!

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:37 pm

Chuck(G) wrote: To my ears, this leaves a "hole" in the acoustic spectrum (unless it's to be filled by the bari sax).

EGAD!

I could be replaced by a bari sax?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:15 pm

TubaTinker wrote:
Chuck(G) wrote: To my ears, this leaves a "hole" in the acoustic spectrum (unless it's to be filled by the bari sax).
EGAD! I could be replaced by a bari sax?

My tongue was very firmly planted in my cheek when I wrote that. I coiuldn't find an appropriate emoticon, however...

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:56 pm

tuba4sissies wrote:Why don't they just keep tuba parts in bass clef?

Why aren't bari sax parts written in bass clef? Why is an alto flute written as a transposing instrument?

I can pick up any brass band part (save for trombones and percussion) and play it on the appropriate instrument using the same fingerings across the entire range.

Makes an enormous amount of sense to me.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:12 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:
tuba4sissies wrote:Why don't they just keep tuba parts in bass clef?
Why aren't bari sax parts written in bass clef? Why is an alto flute written as a transposing instrument?

I can pick up any brass band part (save for trombones and percussion) and play it on the appropriate instrument using the same fingerings across the entire range.

Makes an enormous amount of sense to me.

It makes sense if you read music via fingerings. It is a flaming nightmare if you happen to read by pitch. (but we already had that discussion, some time back.)
MA

scottw · Post by **scottw** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:24 pm

tuba4sissies wrote: but who started on a Eb?

Well, I did. I played from 6th grade till 12th on Eb's. I auditioned for college on Eb. I got to college and found--to my real surprise-- that they had no Eb tubas:none! So, then I took a quick submersion course in BBb fingerings, placement, ear-training, the whole works. And lot's of performances hitting me in the face as a newbie freshman. Talk about fun!

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:11 pm

scottw wrote:
tuba4sissies wrote: but who started on a Eb?
Well, I did. I played from 6th grade till 12th on Eb's. I auditioned for college on Eb.

When was that and where was the college... just curious.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:57 pm

MaryAnn wrote:It makes sense if you read music via fingerings. It is a flaming nightmare if you happen to read by pitch. (but we already had that discussion, some time back.)

As I recall, it's not an issue for folks with a solid sense of relative pitch, just those with absolute pitch who have picked up the habit of equating written notes to absolute pitches.

It seems to me that if written notation is learned as a way to show relationships between pitches and not as a definition of pitch, there wouldn't be a problem for the absolute perfect pitchers.