Difference in sound with a plastic vs metal mpc?

[willako]

I just got a plastic Harrison wedge solo, which is very good. I am thinking about getting the metal version. What would you say are the differences in the sound quality? The difference in cost between $70 (plastic) and $240 (metal) is a lot. Thanks for your opinion about the differences in sound quality. William

[Alex C]

I was playing a Monette when I got my first Kellyberg. I thought it sounded as good as the Monette which cost ten times more.

At my next gig I had some friends listen to me play the two mouthpieces side-by-side. They were surprised at how good the Kellyberg sounded. We did notice a significant difference in the low register though. The Kellyberg low register did not compare to the Monette, it sounded dull below G (3 ledger lines down).

It's a fun mouthpiece and if you're going to play outside or you're just goofin' around, I'd say play the plastic. For serious work you need metal.

[Donn]

If you do get a metal Wedge mouthpiece that's exactly the same as the plastic one you have, please let us know. It's a very rare opportunity, to compare two mouthpieces that are the same but for the material they're made of, so it's hard to say for sure there's any difference. (Make sure it's really exactly the same, though - casting plastic to exact dimensions could be tricky.) In the unlikely event you're really so dedicated to the cause of science, you might coat the metal mouthpiece rim in nail polish to more or less factor out the difference in rim feel.

[DrDave]

The plastic version of the Wedge tuba mouthpiece will be very close to the metal model. Our delrin mouthpieces are turned on the same lathe from the same program as brass and then milled on the same CNC machine. There might be very slight differences due to more tool deflection when cutting brass, and the polishing and plating can change things slightly, but we are talking about tolerances of less than one thousand of an inch in error. Any differences in sound are therefore mostly due to material.

Most players report that delrin is darker and lacks the clarity of sound that one gets from brass. On the up side it is very responsive to soft articulation and is very easy to play softly. Although they respond quickly they have less bead at the front of the note.

[Art Hovey]

This calls for an honest blindfold test.

What I get tired of is:
(1) seeing a kid struggle to hit low Gb, F, and E while using a 24AW or equivalent,
(2) hearing the same kid finally able to hit those notes and even make them sound good after switching to a Kelly 18,
(3) seeing the kid go back to the 24AW because his band teacher told him that the metal mouthpiece must be better.

[GC]

I'm curious about the differences in sound and playability between the plastic and stainless steel Kellyburgs.

[Donn]

I'm curious about the differences in sound and playability between the plastic and stainless steel Kellyburgs.

Here's someone's comment in another thread on Kellys -

Kellyberg Lexan and Stainless: I have them both, and although the dimensions are supposed to be the same, they are a bit different. The overall tone characteristic is the same in both, but the lexan piece gives a slightly fuller sound in the low register, whereas the SS has advantages in the upper range, sounds brighter up there and has a clearer attack (for me). The rim of the SS version feels sharper to me. I play them on a MW 2011FA (HoJo), which is a smaller Bb. I bought the lexan first (crystal orange) just for curiosity, and was so impressed that I ordered the SS a few days later.

The wording is ambiguous, he may have seen dimensional differences, which would invalidate the experiment in terms of metal vs. plastic. Or the playing differences he found could be from rim surface differences, which would confound the results if you're looking for differences due to `resonance.' I think Delrin ought to have a significantly different rim effect, by the way - a little more waxy to me, and because it's machined, probably not as glassy smooth.

[DrDave]

After machining I polish the plastic rim in steps until it is very smooth and shiny. However, even with a very smooth finish plastic is more sticky than brass on the chops. This cam make two mouthpieces feel a little different in size even if they measure as having the same dimensions.

Since we are dealing with a radius, even tiny variations in surface polishing can produce differences that a play can feel between metal and plastic rims. These differences are so slight that they are difficult to reliably measure with radius gauges or a digital probe. My experience is that people can feel tiny changes in radius while the basic sound of the mouthpiece will not be significantly altered. How well a player can play it in terms of range flexibility might vary to some degree, but if we are talking about the basic sound of a plastic or metal mouthpiece two Wedges of the same model should demonstrate the difference. I do not have a tuba, but I have a marching euphonium that I use for play testing mouthpieces. If people can stand to hear a trumpet player with minimal low brass chops play testing mouthpieces I could post some sound clips comparing the tone of a plastic compared to brass trombone mouthpiece of the same size.

Another idea - When we were developing the Wedge line Sasha Johnson set me some sound clips of him playing brass and delrin mouthpieces. Perhaps Sasha would agree to post some of those here so people could hear the difference.

[pgym]

Here's someone's comment in another thread on Kellys -

Kellyberg Lexan and Stainless: I have them both, and although the dimensions are supposed to be the same, they are a bit different. The overall tone characteristic is the same in both, but the lexan piece gives a slightly fuller sound in the low register, whereas the SS has advantages in the upper range, sounds brighter up there and has a clearer attack (for me). The rim of the SS version feels sharper to me. I play them on a MW 2011FA (HoJo), which is a smaller Bb. I bought the lexan first (crystal orange) just for curiosity, and was so impressed that I ordered the SS a few days later.

The wording is ambiguous, he may have seen dimensional differences, which would invalidate the experiment in terms of metal vs. plastic. Or the playing differences he found could be from rim surface differences, which would confound the results if you're looking for differences due to `resonance.' I think Delrin ought to have a significantly different rim effect, by the way - a little more waxy to me, and because it's machined, probably not as glassy smooth.

I think it's more likely that the apparent dimensional difference are perceptual rather than actual.

Here's what Doug Elliott has to say about rim finishes:

RIM FINISHES
Silverplate is a long-lasting, well-liked standard finish. Goldplating (over silverplate) is offered for those who prefer it, but it is much more slippery, and as a result sometimes feels larger than the same size in silver. Lexan (polycarbonate plastic) is a very comfortable but less slippery material that always feels the same temperature, and stays cleaner than a metal finish. It sometimes feels smaller than the same size in metal. Many players prefer plastic, and it is necessary for those who are allergic to silver and gold.

From what I've read, most people perceive SS to be slipperier on the chops than silver but a tad less slippery than gold. Assuming Doug's observation about Lexan rims being less slippery and feeling smaller (to some) than gold- or silverplated rims is valid, then a perceived dimensional difference reported by the quoted poster should not be unexpected, and I suspect the difference in "grip" on the chops explains the perceived difference in rim sharpness as well.

[Doug Elliott]

I have been playing on Lexan almost exclusively for about 25 years now. Occasionally I'll put a silver rim on my mouthpiece. I honestly don't think there is any difference in my sound between them. I know that some players find Lexan to sound darker, and others find it to sound brighter; more projection or less projection; easier articulation or harder articulation.

These are the same kinds of results that you get from heavier mouthpieces... some players experience no difference at all while others have a strong opinion one way or the other - darker, brighter, more center, less center, faster reponse, slower response, easier to get around the horn, harder to get around the horn.

Acoustical difference, mechanical difference, or psychological difference?

Maybe some or all of them. The fact that some players experience NO difference tells me it's not acoustical. I think it's due to mechanical factors of the way the chops respond to stickiness or slipperiness of the rim. For example, the slipperiness of gold "feels" bigger, and for some it "acts" bigger, with a darker sound. The same can be said for playing wet vs dry. I suppose SS may also be in that direction, and plastic is in the opposite direction. But a strong player who has tremendous control over the instrument will be affected a lot less.

[MikeW]

A random thought just fluttered past: How about a range of waxes for different levels of grip ? Like ski waxes, but food-grade and guaranteed non toxic.

On the subject of wax, there is a wax used in the game of lawn bowls known as "Grippo" which leaves a non-slip shine. Maybe this would be of interest to some players whose instruments are slippery to hold when polished with Pledge ? (use at your own risk, I've no idea what's in that stuff)

[DrDave]

I think the composition of the mouthpiece does make a difference in a way that is not related to the interface between the mouthpiece and the chops, and not related to subtle differences in dimensions. I have done a fair bit of experimenting with mixing components of various materials. Different combinations include plastic trumpet tops with brass, plastic, or stainless backbores, one piece all plastic trumpet mouthpieces with and without a brass sleeve attached over the outside of the mouthpiece, and trombone mouthpieces with and without a brass ring attached at the base of the shank. In all of these cases the players had the same plastic rim and cup in contact the face, and sometimes the only change was a metal sleeve attached to the outside of the mouthpiece. In every case blinded players and observers could feel and hear a difference. The differences can be subtle or dramatic, but I believe they do exist.

[Kevin Hendrick]

A random thought just fluttered past: How about a range of waxes for different levels of grip ? Like ski waxes, but food-grade and guaranteed non toxic.

On the subject of wax, there is a wax used in the game of lawn bowls known as "Grippo" which leaves a non-slip shine. Maybe this would be of interest to some players whose instruments are slippery to hold when polished with Pledge ? (use at your own risk, I've no idea what's in that stuff)

Well, that didn't take long to find:

http://www.henselite.co.uk/products/acc ... rippo-tube

Didn't find the ingredients or MSDS on either page -- maybe they'd email them to you.

Also found this:

http://zildjian.com/Products/Accessorie ... mstick-Wax

No ingredients or MSDS for this one, either, but if it's OK to use on a chicken leg, it can't be too bad for you ...

[pgym]

I think the composition of the mouthpiece does make a difference in a way that is not related to the interface between the mouthpiece and the chops, and not related to subtle differences in dimensions. I have done a fair bit of experimenting with mixing components of various materials. Different combinations include plastic trumpet tops with brass, plastic, or stainless backbores, one piece all plastic trumpet mouthpieces with and without a brass sleeve attached over the outside of the mouthpiece, and trombone mouthpieces with and without a brass ring attached at the base of the shank. In all of these cases the players had the same plastic rim and cup in contact the face, and sometimes the only change was a metal sleeve attached to the outside of the mouthpiece. In every case blinded players and observers could feel and hear a difference. The differences can be subtle or dramatic, but I believe they do exist.

But how do you establish that the differences are due to the material rather than the difference in the overall mass?

[DrDave]

The mass question is interesting. Usually adding mass to a mouthpiece darkens the sound. However adding a stainless steel or brass component to a plastic mouthpiece adds quite significant mass and brightens the sound.

Here is another interesting example. A brass trumpet mouthpiece weighing 100 grams sounds darker than a stainless mouthpiece mouthpiece with the same internal dimensions and a heavy backbore weighing 120 grams. So although mass is important other material characteristics seem to be at play (if you will pardon the pun).

[tubajazzo]

It was me who commented about the plastic vs. metal Kellybergs. Sorry if that was ambiguous wording. I am not a native speaker, english is a foreign language for me. I meant that, despite the dimensions should be identical (having no tools to verifie that), the mouthpieces are different in feel and sound as described. Some days ago I did again some comparisons, and would still state the same. But I am not a pro player, so it could just be "me".

Gerd

[DrDave]

Regarding Doug's experience that a plastic rim on a metal trombone mouthpiece sounds the same as a metal one, I am not surprised. I have observed a similar situation with Delrin rims on trumpet mouthpieces. I find that the plastic rim makes it sound a little darker, but not much. The difference is subtle enough that a really accomplished player could color the sound enough to cause their usual sound to emerge.

In my experience the affect of a plastic rim is more pronounced on a regular weight blank and less pronounced on a heavy weight blank. This has been reported to me by players who have tested all metal mouthpieces against those with plastic rims and metal bodies of different weights, and I have heard it myself. I also know a very accomplished horn player who feels that a stainless steel screw rim on his brass underpart naturally plays brighter than the same cup with an identical brass rim. So I think the relative amount of each material is important, and the small amount of plastic in the rim alone seems to affect the sound less than a whole mouthpiece in plastic or a combination with a higher plastic to metal ratio than just a rim. If the ratio is small many players will not notice it, or will naturally compensate for it. The fact that some players find no difference between plastic and metal attests to the fact that we are all different and that many factors influence the relationship.