CLR?

[Tubajug]

Will CLR hurt anything if I soak the valves from my "new" Eb in it? They've got gunk on them that look like calcium and/or lime deposits.

[Dan Schultz]

That should not be a problem. The main ingredient in CLR is sulfamic acid.... the 'active ingredient' in Slime-Away and other brass cleaners.

The really neat thing about sulfamic acid is that it does not produce fumes like muriatic acid and will only go into solution with water up to 10% by weight.

You don't need to leave the pistons in CLR any longer than what it takes to take off the lime deposits.

(Hint.... white vinegar will do the same thing but takes a bit longer).

[PMeuph]

The TNFJ has never reached a real consensus on CLR. The credible answer is always "Take it to a repair tech how knows how to handle acids properly."

Here are some previous threads.
https://www.google.com/search?q=clr+sit ... =firefox-a" target="_blank" target="_blank

____

Personal opinion: I've used CLR on my junkers before. I've also used Vinegar on all my horns. When I use CLR, I dilute it with water about 4 parts of water for every part of CLR and let valves and slides sit for about 10-15 minutes. I check in periodically. I tried undiluted CLR and its effects where very quick (1-2 minutes). Diluted seems safer in case your forgetful or there's a remote chance that you'll be distracted.

FWIW, vinegar is great because it is weak(i.e less dangerous) and cheap. I've let slides sit in vinegar for over an hour without any problems.

With whatever product you use: Safety is the key word. Wear gloves, goggles, etc and use in a well ventilated area. Monitor carefully as reactions may be different on your horn.

[MikeW]

I have often wondered about this topic; We seem to see frequent mentions of lime and calcium in tubas, and we know that such deposits can be removed by mild acids. "Lime" is a convenient name for such deposits, but does anyone know for sure what this stuff actually is ?

It it actually the same stuff as the lime/calcium that furs up my kettle ?

If not, then what is it ?

How did it get into the tuba ?

[Dan Schultz]

I have often wondered about this topic; We seem to see frequent mentions of lime and calcium in tubas, and we know that such deposits can be removed by mild acids. "Lime" is a convenient name for such deposits, but does anyone know for sure what this stuff actually is ?

It it actually the same stuff as the lime/calcium that furs up my kettle ?

If not, then what is it ?

How did it get into the tuba ?

It's the same as hard water deposits in your tub, sink, or toilet. Calcium, lime, whatever you care to call it.

[Ken Herrick]

I have used CLR for cleaning brass and silver instruments with no ill effects. It is rather like a poor man's bright dip which would require an environmental agency permit here.

It doesn't work as quickly, which can be a good thing, and os much safer to use.

I recall an apprentice leaving slides etc. for a sousy in the bright dip bath - nothing much left next morning. You could give a tuba a pretty good "chem clean" by capping valve casings and plugging the first tuning slide leg and filling it from the mpc receiver with CLR and letting it soak for 10 minutes or so. Use full strength. When done, collect and save for next time.

Rinse thoroughly witth water.

[MikeW]

It's the same as hard water deposits in your tub, sink, or toilet. Calcium, lime, whatever you care to call it.

I've been pondering this (only occasionally, but for a few years now) under the general headings of "idle curiosity" and "I wonder"; After all, the methods for cleaning it out are well established, so it's not a burning issue - but it still leaves a little itch of curiosity unsatisfied.

So far we have one vote for water hardness (calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate). The way I'm looking at it is, that to get a deposit like that in my kettle I have to boil hard water in it two or three times a day for a year or two. Do you guys boil hard water in your tubas ? if not, how does the lime get in there ? The reaction with mild acid is not inconsistent with the lime hypothesis, but is by no means conclusive. Does anyone have any solid evidence ?

I'm not trying to be snippy here, in fact I'm struggling to express curiosity without being controversial, but I just don't understand how mineral salts could get in there. Something (most likely a bicarbonate) would have to be carried in there somehow (most likely in aqueous solution) and then change or be changed either chemically or physically to leave a deposit. My doubt arises because I just can't visualize a mechanism by which this could happen. On the other hand I don't have a clue what else it might be. Does anyone here know if this stuff has ever been analyzed ?

[Dan Schultz]

..... I'm not trying to be snippy here, in fact I'm struggling to express curiosity without being controversial, but I just don't understand how mineral salts could get in there. Something (most likely a bicarbonate) would have to be carried in there somehow (most likely in aqueous solution) and then change or be changed either chemically or physically to leave a deposit. My doubt arises because I just can't visualize a mechanism by which this could happen. On the other hand I don't have a clue what else it might be. Does anyone here know if this stuff has ever been analyzed ?

I wouldn't mind a scientific explanation, either. However... I think all of us repair guys can agree that this 'white-ish' stuff is the felon when it comes to leaching the zinc out of brass and leaving behind a porous substrate that's called 'red rot'.

[Tubajug]

Interesting discussion this got going.... I went with the vinegar and it did a good enough job. I might have to soak the valves again and give them a good scrub to get it all off. In addition to the lime deposits they had a lovely mustard colored mud looking gunk too. Yummy....I just let them soak while we watched an episode of Criminal Minds.

[Dan Schultz]

..... In addition to the lime deposits they had a lovely mustard colored mud looking gunk too. Yummy......

I've observed this in my helicon just after three days of Volksfest. Horseradish mustard and bratwurst!

[bigtubby]

This topic makes me want to ask:

What was the stuff that Allied used to sell as "Exo-Kleen" (or was it "Exo-Clean"?). Back in the 70's and 80's? I remember being told that it was a modern, safer alternative to muriatic acid.

I'm not seeing it in their current catalog.

P.S. I've found CLR to be very useful as well but always wash/rinse thoroughly afterward. My well produces water so hard that you need to put a rubber mat under the faucet to prevent it chipping the porcelain so CLR is a staple here.

[Lee Stofer]

Using just a little deductive reasoning, the calcification does not happen if an instrument is not used, so it has to come from what we introduce into the instrument when we play. As the acids from our mouth, and any food, etc., particles enter the leadpipe, valves and slides of the instrument, the acids break down the remnants from our mouth, leaving bacteria and a side product of calcium deposits and zinc where the acid attacks the brass, leaches out zinc and leaves spongy, porous copper where the brass once was.

That is the corrosion and red-rot process, and anything we can do to stop that will preserve the instrument. Muriatic acid, white vinegar, CLR Bathroom Cleaner and commercially available sulfamic acid solutions will remove the residue, so that the instrument can be returned to a really clean condition again, where the valves and slides do not feel gritty. Removing the grit prevents the accelerated wear of valves, particularly piston valves. The cleaner that you keep your instrument, the longer it will last. I hate to have to tell people that the bumps they see in the silver plating on the lower side of their trumpet's leadpipe indicates that the pipe is corroded all the way through the brass, and that the silver plating is the only thing at this point keeping it from leaking.

The single most important preventative is cleaning and removing the corrosion by-products, but I add another, important step to what I do. I've found that when I get an instrument immaculately clean, then introduce a chemical to stabilize the metal, the corrosion process is stopped, or at least brought to a virtual standstill for up to 5 years. Imagine having an instrument that never has stuck slides or valves, ever.

If you use one of the above-mentioned products to de-lime/de-scale your instrument's leadpipe, valves and slides, I would highly recommend giving it a thorough scrubbing inside- and out afterwards with warm, soapy water to remove any remaining chemicals, use cheesecloth and a cleaning rod to dry-out all inner-and outer slide tubes, thoroughly dry the valves and valve casings, and leave the instrument disassembled overnight if necessary to make sure it is dry inside. Even if the metal has been just cleaned and left de-stabilized, drying it all out well will help keep it cleaner. Also, the valves and slides will stay in better condition longer if they are thoroughly dry before being lubricated, avoiding contaminating and diluting the lubricants.

[bigtubby]

new name" "Slime-Away".

various sizes:
A876
A877
A886

Ah there it is, thank you! Ordered.

[jrobba]

As the acids from our mouth, and any food, etc., particles enter the leadpipe, valves and slides of the instrument, the acids break down the remnants from our mouth, leaving bacteria and a side product of calcium deposits and zinc where the acid attacks the brass, leaches out zinc and leaves spongy, porous copper where the brass once was.

I've been wondering what the process for this was for a little while now. I just bought a brand new horn a little over a month ago and it had a couple spots of this when I bought it.

[royjohn]

Will there be a problem if I used CLR on my lacquered horn and some gets on the finish? I seem to remember using it on a lacquered trumpet and taking off some lacquer where it ran out of the valves onto the finish. I don't remember what dilution, if any, I was using...

[Lee Stofer]

CLR (Sulfamic Acid) should not hurt modern finishes, as long as you do not leave it in the solution for very long. I warm water-and-detergent wash parts first, as the acid cannot do it's job well when the crud is encased in lubricants. Then, I dip the parts in my tank, normally for 25-30 seconds, then immediately rinse them.

If there are bits of green or white plaque left in the instrument or parts, I use a set of dental picks and go for it manually. This can be a very time-consuming proposition, but the result is an extremely thoroughly-cleaned instrument, where the rot has been stopped. If I have to manually loosen crud from the inside of the instrument with the picks, then I soap-scrub them again and dip them once more in the sulfamic acid. After that, there may be pink, or copper-colored portions of the brass. I'll then use #0000 super-fine steel wool and polish the copper residue off, revealing gleaming brass underneath. That is when you really know it is clean.

I have also started using my Dremel tool with the long flex shaft and the #511E finishing abrasive buffs to clean the inside of particularly troubled inner slides. After using the other procedures, the Dremel can polish the inner surfaces of a slide to excellence in less than a minute. This is particularly nice since it can finish off any remaining crud, and also polish out a rough solder joint or possibly a burr where the water key hole was drilled.

The CLR is safe for brief periods of time, but if you leave it in/on your instrument for 5 minutes or more, you're likely to lose some lacquer.

[royjohn]

Hey, Lee,

Many thanks for your response on this. A few questions, though.

What dilution of CLR are you using?

Not a problem taking out slides and filling them up, but what about other parts of the horn, the leadpipe and tubing after the valves?

I'm interested to hear that you are polishing tubing with a flexshaft, as I've thought of doing this, but the 511E buffs I was able to see on the Internet are 180,280 and 325 grit, which is a lot coarser than #0000 steel wool. What grit are you using?

Thanks again for your help and guidance.

[MikeW]

The main ingredient in CLR is sulfamic acid...

Purely out of idle curiousity, I looked at a bottle of CLR in the store, yesterday. The main ingredient is listed as Lactic acid. Here is a link to the MSDS on their website, which lists Lactic acid and Gluconic acid (plus what looks like a surfactant):

http://www.jelmar.com/msds/2012/CLR_Cal ... t_MSDS.pdf

I guess they must have changed their formulation at some point. If you definitely need Sulfamic acid, it is still listed in Lime-Away. As far as I can tell from wiki-whatsit, lactic acid is a little more active than acetic acid (depending on the relative concentrations), so CLR probably still has the cleaning edge over vinegar. Unless there's a chemist out there who knows different ?

[royjohn]

After looking at this thread, I searched the internet. Found an ACS (American Chemical Society) paper on line on sulfamic acid which indicated it was safe for and noncorrosive to metals. At the local dollar store, the CLR was not formulated with sulfamic acid, and there were several bathroom cleaners made with 20% hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) but I decided to go with The Works Tub and Shower Cleaner, which had sulfamic acid and various additives and only cost a buck. The instructions said to wipe down the counter for 30 seconds, but I used it for one minute in a slide and then added another minute. All the slides were done for two to three minutes a slide and almost all the lime deposits were gone. Rinsed, used a knife on the rim where the solution did not reach and snaked out each slide and put the horn back together. Hard to tell if it played a little more open or whether it was my imagination, but visually it was clearly clean. The solution was reused for each slide and there was a white residue in it after it was reused a couple of times, so I guess it's dissolving the calcium. I used less than half a bottle.

In a few days, I'll turn the horn upside down outside and pour some solution into the "U" of the leadpipe and then rinse well when done. The horn is only three years old, but was played quite a bit by a BM student and you could see the calcium buildup.

As a side note, when I filled the second valve slide I was surprised to see a very very thin stream coming from a pinhole in the slide at the bottom of the "U". I decided to plug the hole with superglue gel and that left a very small blemish on the lacquer, but I left some of that rather than try to remove it completely and possibly open the hole again. Plugging one end and blowing into the other indicated that the slide was now air tight. An easier fix than soldering and having to patch the lacquer. I had not noticed any problems from the very small leak.

I haven't gotten into steel wooling the insides of the slides or using a flexshaft to polish them as Dan described yet. I might later.

Just one person's experience. If three years produced a level of calcium buildup that was clearly visible, those of you with old horns ought to pull your slides and take a look into them. . .