Show me your main tuning slide stick

[Paul Scott]

Below are some photos of my 1915 King BBb tuba equipped with two tuning rods. The horn is basically a duplicate of Don Butterfield's King, (a horn he referred to as "The Strad" or, in later years, "Old Deuteronomy"). Don liked playing 3-valved BBb tubas and equipping them with tuning rods like these on the first and third tuning slides. Not sure who did the work on this one but I would say that the old Giardinelli's in NYC is a possibility. Anyway....

The rods seem to be made of aluminum attached to a socket on the slide crook with allen screws. The circular handle at the top (also aluminum) is attached in the same way and the rods pass through a pair of brass sleeves. While these are not photos of a main-slide stick the same system could be set up for the main slide. Hope this is helpful!

[Jay Bertolet]

Well, it just so happens that I did the very operation on my old Cerveny 601 that you are contemplating. I did other work on the horn as well (you can see the added 5th valve and some of the sound deadening ribbing, plus the new valve linkage) but the intonation did require a tuning stick installed on the main for me to effectively manage pitch. I'm sorry I don't have a better photo, this is the only one that shows the whole mechanism so it's not that close-up of a photo. I no longer own the horn so maybe the new owner might see this thread and maybe post a better photo. This particular installation was done by Roy Lawler who is a trumpet and trombone manufacturer as well as an incredible repairman. He's located in Tennessee now so you could always contact him if you wanted him to do the work. He made everything from scratch except the ball connector at the slide. Good luck!

[Ace]

[quote="Grooving for Heaven"]Just bought a 70's era cerveny 601 for a great price. It's a solid horn, but the scale isn't as good as my piggy, especially the low C, which is at least 20 cents flat, with the main tuning slide almost all the way in. I might have to replace the 40 year old leadpipe (it's in 3 parts) but the other thing I'm considering is adding a T-handle or some other device to manipulate the main tuning slide (which is vertical)

I'll have to shorten the main so I can bring it in an inch at least, but I like the idea of being able to bring it up or down as needed for certain notes. I have a kicker on my 2nd valve on my piggy that I use for 2+4, but this would be even better.

In 1995, I purchased a new Cerveny 601-5MR CC tuba. It was about 50-60 cents flat, so I took it to Dick Akright in Oakland CA to have the main shortened. If I remember correctly, he cut off about an inch or so on both sides. The problem was solved.

Ace

[Kevin Hendrick]

60 cents flat? dang, that's technically a B tuba

That's as may B ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA7lv1SDzno

[Bob Kolada]

Paul, do you have a picture of the whole King?

[Paul Scott]

Here 'tis:

[Uncle Markie]

Paul and friends -

I studied with Don starting back in 1965.

Those rods were made by the King repair department back in the 1970s. The repair guy at the factory was a guy named Marshall I believe. He made me a set for a detachable bell three-valve I played for many years.

HOWEVER - I had the rods removed, and the slides reconfigured for top pull. I did this because all that metal was actually deadening some of the horn's better notes.

Years ago Andy Sanella (you could look him up; he was a pretty famous saxophonist in the 1920s-30s) wrote pamphlet for Selmer, the theory of the booklet was that fewer mechanisms made for better playing instruments. I now subscribe to this theory.

Don only put the rods on his good King (it was the "Stradivarius" when I studied with him BTW) later on, and I believe he added some kind of 4th valve to it also - after years of proclaiming there was no need for it, etc. Most of the recording work he did with it was without the rods - in the 1950s and 60s. By 1973 the jingle business was pretty much gone from NYC as a Madison Avenue monopoly with the removal of cigarette ads in 1968. No more "Winston tastes good like a cigarette should" and Don ended up teaching more than performing.

Don ruined a bunch of instruments over the years experimenting and doing some stuff that was downright goofy - e.g., leadpipes angled three inches away from the bell throat. The slide rods worked - insofar as they did lower the pitch for notes you had time to sustain - but on my horn they also made other notes less responsive than they were without the rods. After a while I got tired of looking around for King rubber bands (that was the "return" system on the rods) and switched it to an easier configuration - for me.

Mark Heter

[Uncle Markie]

I've seen that horn for sale - and I think it was one of Don's "loan outs" that never came back. It's a top action pre-1920 four-valve model in a .720 bore - larger than the .687 King used for most of their instruments. I'm curious to know how that horn came on the market...

I know that horn well - it has an unshakeable center of tone - you can't really get "off center"! I used to play that horn trying out Don's latest duets with him.

Unfortunately the intonation is pretty bad on those models, most of them were sold to the US Navy I believe.

They made the same horn in an EEb configuration, and they play pretty out of tune too. If you get your hands on one, look for a figure of lion stamped in the second valve casing. The engraving on the front of the bell is pretty spectacular, too. HN White abandoned that configuration pretty early on.

Don's horn has nickel-chromed inner slides (he pulled the first one on that axe a lot, as did I when I played it). The King factory repair department restored/customized it for Don (no rods on this one that I remember).
The open fifth "F" was pretty flat on those models as was the high Bb and the middle line D.

Most all of Don Butterfield's horns were front action; Bell fronts, one-piece uprights, etc. He did own an old Navy Conn with four top-action valves - easy blowing horn that was really out of tune. He did some of his early NYC work on a one-piece bellfront York (The Clark Terry record comes to mind), which ended up at NYU, and then off to parts unkown. I played that horn - it was a lung vampire - TOO BIG. Also Don had a Holton CC - not one of those 345 BATS, but something very much like the Sear DePrins in configuration. He donated that one to his high school in Centralia WA. Walter had one of those Holtons, and when Don was trying to figure out how to perform the Charles Wuorinen tuba concerto he actually borrowed Walter's old Holton to see if it worked better (on a hunch) for the piece - pretty avant garde for its time. It didn't, and Don did the piece on his BBb King AND his Alex F.

Ah, memory lane!

Mark Heter

[Jay Bertolet]

I don't know what Ron had on his horn, but I considered this sort of device for my horns many times. The one I was most familiar with was the one that I heard Susan Slaughter, former principal trumpet in the Saint Louis Symphony, was associated with. I never spoke to her about it so her association with that product may just be a rumor. I heard rumors of a tuba version of that device as well but never actually saw one. I did a quick internet search and saw a trumpet version of that design, located here:

http://germanbrass.com/sold/BachC229Laskey/" target="_blank

I like the concept of the design but it never caught on. The principal of the device is that you set it to a central position such that the slide has room to move in either direction. Hopefully, that central position yields good intonation (maybe one of the reasons it never caught on). Then you can move a lever, handle, or thumb ring to push the slide in or out as needed. Afterwards, since the device is spring loaded, the slide automatically returns to the centered position.

[mbell]

Just bought a 70's era cerveny 601 for a great price. It's a solid horn, but the scale isn't as good as my piggy, especially the low C, which is at least 20 cents flat, with the main tuning slide almost all the way in. I might have to replace the 40 year old leadpipe (it's in 3 parts) but the other thing I'm considering is adding a T-handle or some other device to manipulate the main tuning slide (which is vertical)

On my Cerveny Kaiser the low C is extremely flat. Judging from this thread, that must be common. I found that fingering the low C 1+4 works fairly well. It can be a tiny bit high but is easy enough to lip down or pull the first slide a bit. My low B is also very flat. I'm starting to get reasonably nimble at pushing in the second slide.

I can deal with it for now, but I've been considering a main tuning slide stick or a trigger for the 2nd valve slide. Also might want to cut the 2nd valve slide as even all the way in the low B is still a bit low.

mike

[Jay Bertolet]

There's nothing wrong with the system you're using Terry but consider what would be your options if you needed to adjust a note that didn't involve the use of either the first or third valves. That problem is what led me to having a stick installed on the main slide. I happen to be lucky enough that all my horns that require this sort of modification have vertical main tuning slides (and unlucky enough that a couple of these horns had real intonation issues). I've seen devices for the horizontal type main slide and I think they're clunky. As far as ease of use, the stick is really easy. No more figuring out which slide(s) to pull, just keep your hand on the stick and that affects every note on the horn. Very easy.

I'm sure my advocacy of these devices is an outgrowth of the intonation quirks of my various horns. I've heard plenty of players suggest these devices are really not necessary and I respect their opinions, I just don't agree.

[windshieldbug]

I'm sure my advocacy of these devices is an outgrowth of the intonation quirks of my various horns.

Not just intonation (Equal Tempered just means each note is equally out of tune) but tuning as well.

I was lucky enough to get a Marzan early on, and HIGHLY agree with Jay.

[J.c. Sherman]

I've been meaning to pay the Bishop a visit for a while; I'll see if I can find a pic of his Alex "hemolator" as he calls it... it's much more elaborate than anything posted so far, and very effective (for basically an entire career).

Here's what my Alex 163 had/has:

Headshot-Tuba-Small.JPG

Simple rod with an ineffective spring (prior owner) and a plastic ball and socket on the bottom, and a t-bar on top.

I never used it

[mbell]

Let me ask you, how far out is your tuning slide to play the rest of the notes? Will you have to cut your slide to bring pitch up so Low C is in tune?

My tuning slide is normally out about an inch or so. My low C is really low though, so I think I would have to cut my slide as well if I tried this option.

mike

[Greg Lecewicz]

60 cents flat? dang, that's technically a B tuba

Widely used in the country music and sometimes it helps to blend with the reeds in the symphony...

[Tubajug]

Nice! So it's just a straight-forward, push and pull? No springs? Looks simple enough!

[J.c. Sherman]

Here's a pic of the worlds best, but most complicated wammy bar Ron Bishop's Alex:

Alex-reduced.jpg

[tclements]

This was installed AT Hirsbrunner by Mr. Hirsbrunner.