cleaning out the horn after being sick

[Chuck(G)]

The problem with hydrogen peroxide and vinegar is that they don't disinfect anything. If you are going to bother going through this process, you might as well use something known to be effective.

Harold, you should take this up with the poor benighted CDC and the EPA:

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg174.html
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheet ... tsheet.htm

In the home, dilute hydrogen peroxide solutions are used as disinfectants, deodorants, and hair-bleaching agents.

More to the point, H2O2 is a very strong oxidizer; which is what makes it a mild disinfectant. I suppose that chlorine bleach might be better, but the decomposition products aren't neutral.

[crbarnes]

The problem with hydrogen peroxide and vinegar is that they don't disinfect anything. If you are going to bother going through this process, you might as well use something known to be effective.

Bleach is very effective and is sometimes used to treat municipal water suppies. In a 20/1 mixture, the bleach should leave no odor and is probably very difficult to taste.

From the Vinegar Institute's Site:

Vinegar as a Cleaner and Sanitizer

Vinegar is well recognized as a cleaning and sanitizing agent. It is especially effective in removing inorganic soils and mineral deposits such as hard water films. As a sanitizer, it is effective against a broad range of bacteria, yeasts and molds, destroying or reducing these organisms to acceptable levels.

In a study conducted by the University of Georgia, Shigella sonnei on parsely was greatly reduced or eliminated after treating with vinegar 1. Similarly, researchers at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University showed a reduction of E. coli O157:H7 on apples subjected to a wash containing acetic acid.2

Additionally, vinegar has been found to be effective as a rinse agent in reducing levels of E. coli on various countertop surfaces (e.g., laminate, wood, tile, concrete, stainless steel and granite).3 In a study comparing the effectiveness of natural products and commercial disinfectants against human pathogens, researchers found that vinegar had "substantial activity" against Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Salmonella choleraesuis, but was not effective against E. coli O157:H7 and Staphylococcus aureus.4 However, the researchers cautioned that the data, which was based on suspension tests, "may not fully evaluate the ability of these disinfectants to eliminate microorganisms dried on environmental surfaces."

From the h202-4u site:

What is H2O2?

H2O2 is simply the scientific name for Hydrogen Peroxide. It is a naturally occurring water-like liquid that has many practical applications both inside and outside the home. The purpose of this site is to educate and inform the average person about this amazing liquid. Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is made up of two hydrogen atoms and two oxygen atoms. H2O2 looks like water (H2O), but that extra oxygen molecule makes this natural water additive one of the most powerful oxidizers known to man. It is formed in nature by the action of sunlight on water, and even in honey!

You are probably already familiar with using the low grade 3% hydrogen peroxide in your medicine cabinet as an antiseptic on cuts and scrapes. Being a powerful oxidizer, hydrogen peroxide kills bacteria, viruses and fungi. This means it is also great for disinfecting your kitchen and bathroom. You can make your household cleaner and safer just by substituting hydrogen peroxide for those caustic chemicals you are currently using.

Did you know that your body makes hydrogen peroxide to fight infection? It is a fact that Hydrogen peroxide must be present for our immune system to function correctly. White blood cells are known as Leukocytes. Leukocytes are divided into three classes: Granulocytes, Lymphocytes and Monocytes. Granulocytes are themselves divided into three classes: Neutrophils, Eosinophils and Basophils. Neutrophils produce hydrogen peroxide as the first line of defense against toxins, parasites, bacteria, viruses and yeast.

[ThomasDodd]

Vinegar as a Cleaner and Sanitizer

Vinegar is well recognized as a cleaning and sanitizing agent. It is especially effective in removing inorganic soils and mineral deposits such as hard water films. As a sanitizer, it is effective against a broad range of bacteria, yeasts and molds, destroying or reducing these organisms to acceptable levels.
...
3 In a study comparing the effectiveness of natural products and commercial disinfectants against human pathogens, researchers found that vinegar had "substantial activity" against Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Salmonella choleraesuis, but was not effective against E. coli O157:H7 and Staphylococcus aureus.4 However, the researchers cautioned that the data, which was based on suspension tests, "may not fully evaluate the ability of these disinfectants to eliminate microorganisms dried on environmental surfaces."

That says nothing about virii though, which cous colds and flu. Also of note is that last statement, since the mouthpeice has likely dried prior to application.

[crbarnes]

Valid point about the anti-viral. . As I first mentioned, my "official" instructions for cleaning and disinfecting my CPAP face mask was to use vinegar so it seems like a reasonable choice and is cheap. Anti-viral stuff is a whole different story as those little beasties are pretty tough customers. Of course the other thing about cleaning the inside of your horn is to use something that doesn't leave any residue behind. MPs are a lot easier to deal with than horn innards.
Maybe it would just be easier to buy a new horn if you play your current one when you are sick. (Well that might work on your spouse or significant other as a justification for getting a new axe. Of course, you don't know WHO may have tried it at the shop before you. Hmm...a new problem. Sounds like a trip to the factory is in order.

[Dylan King]

Just wash the horn out with some Pepto Bismol.

[crbarnes]

Hydrogen Peroxide has been shown to kill mold, mildew, fungi, viruses, bacteria and other harmful biological contaminants. 35% H2O2 can be used to protect against the sicknesses of today as well as the bioweapons of tomorrow.

These are just a few of the reasons that H2O2 is the solution to keep your household a cleaner and safer place for your family and pets. But don't just run out to the drugstore to stock up on 3% H2O2. Your local drugstore's low quality 3% Hydrogen Peroxide has added chemicals. That is why we located a source of fine technical grade H2O2. Our product is the finest technical grade H2O2 that you can get! We packaged it in self measuring bottles for your convenience. This is very concentrated solution (35%) and needs to be diluted before use. Handle with care.

http://www.h2o2-4u.com/price.html

So the problem is you have to order the lab grade concentrate and then dilute it according to the Materials Handling sheet, etc., etc.
Sounds like a lot of hassle, even if it is a great solution (no pun intended).

[Chuck(G)]

The CDC link that you provided was specific to killing anthrax and uses a much higher concentration of hydrogen peroxide than is available commercially to the average tubist.

Harold, see:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

The effect of H2O2 on adenovirus types 3 and 6, adenoassociated virus type 4, rhinoviruses 1A, 1B, and type 7, myxoviruses, influenza A and B, respiratory syncytial virus, strain Long, and coronavirus strain 229E was studied in vitro, using different H2O2 concentration and timec of exposure. H2O2 in a 3 percent concentration inactivated all the viruses under study within 1--30 min. Coronavirus and influenza viruses were found to be most sensitive. Reoviruses, adenoviruses and adenoassociated virus were relatively stable. H2O2 is a convenient means for virus inactivation.

(I've tried to stay away from citing "fringe medicine" groups, like the idiots who inject H202 intravenously).

[tubamirum]

I wish I could take lacquer off with hot water. If you can, it's ready to come off anyway. If you have stripped lacquer with hot water, I would welcome knowing your method.

[elimia]

Wow, this has sparked a neat thread.

I am a big environmentalist, so I won't use bleach for anything. I don't buy it, haven't had any around for years. The process and byproducts of making bleach, not worth it to me just to get socks 'whiter than white'.

To digress...I have really enjoyed the new bleach commercials showing how good bleach is to 'remove body grime in your clothes'. It's a good thing, because people are dying left and right due to body grime in clothes It never ceases to amaze me how many different ways companies use scare tactics to rush consumers out, in their irrational fears and insecurities, to buy more stuff. Ok, off my rant...

I clean at home with a vinegar/water mix. I think the solution is to bathe the horn in WARM water, a little mild soap thrown in for good measure, and run a little bit of vinegar through it.

For the record - Hydrogen peroxide is a wicked oxidizer, it would seem to be a good alternative.

[gwwilk]

/Cold Water On
This thread is a perfect example of how fears can lead to irrational and dangerous behavior. As a practicing physician who treats wind musicians, I've never broached the subject of 'disinfecting' one's instrument after an upper respiratory illness, or any other for that matter. What was accurately stated in this thread is that once you've had the particular illness that the virus in question produces, you're immune. How else could I, as a practicing physician not acquire every single illness I treat? It doesn't happen, but on occasion a new virus does come around and I'm laid up just like everyone else who acquires it.

In point of fact, I've been spending most of my time this week off work with the worst case of laryngitis I've ever had. I tried to return to seeing patients Tuesday, but after just an hour I had no way to communicate except with sign language because of my hoarseness. The additional unfortunate aspect of laryngitis is that voice rest is the tried and true treatment, and that's not possible while working at a job that requires social interaction.

I'm not going to sterilize my tubas, even though they've provided me with considerable respite (and are therefore 'contaminated') from the inevitable boredom that comes from remaining mute most of the time. I've seen a few good movies, too.

We live in a generally harmonious relationship with a sea of microorganisms throughout our environment. You can't sterilize the world we live in, nor would you really want to. Eat right, live sensibly, exercise, be positive, and have the right parents. Oh, and listen to your physician.
/Cold Water Off

[Chuck(G)]

Sorry Chuck,

Harold, we could go back and forth on this forever. But here's another paper (in English):

http://www.unc.edu/depts/spice/dis/Disi ... thcare.pdf

Alternatively, you could just autoclave your tuba...

[ThomasDodd]

Alternatively, you could just autoclave your tuba...

Try locating an autoclave big enough...

Maybe a kiln?

[Rick Denney]

I wish I could take lacquer off with hot water. If you can, it's ready to come off anyway. If you have stripped lacquer with hot water, I would welcome knowing your method.

Step 1. Start with a tuba lacquered with air-dried nitrocellulose. (Hint: That includes most older German instruments, but not old Kings and all Yamahas that have catalyzed lacquers, and maybe not newer German instruments.)

Step 2. Fill bathtub with the hottest water available.

Step 3. Place tuba in bathtub.

Step 4. Wipe tuba.

Rick "thinking the old nitrocellulose lacquers came off by themselves eventually anyway" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

2. The hydrogen peroxide concentrations that are used according to this article are much higher than what is available to the individual at the drugstore.

Funny, but I thought it said:

Other disadvantages of hypochlorites include corrosiveness to metals in high concentrations (>500 ppm), inactivation by organic matter, discoloring or “bleachingâ€

[Dan Schultz]

OK guys! I'm gonna listen to anterux and Dr. wwilk. There is absolutely no reason to panic about a few germs in your tuba. Give it a bath in warm (I SAID WARM) water and Dawn once in a while, have it chem-cleaned every year or so.... and don't worry about it

[Dan Schultz]

OK guys! I'm gonna listen to anterux and Dr. wwilk. There is absolutely no reason to panic about a few germs in your tuba. Give it a bath in warm (I SAID WARM) water and Dawn once in a while, have it chem-cleaned every year or so.... and don't worry about it

You are absolutely right Dan, but this thread started as what to do after you were finished being sick.

OK.... I understand. But the fact still remains that you are not going to get the same bug again. There's no reason to get into a panic about viri lingering in your horn.

[Anterux]

Ditto.

[ThomasDodd]

This is much ado about nothing.

Doesn't that describe most topics here after the 1st 2 pages ?

[tubatooter1940]

If you use the bath tub,remember you got to get the goo out if the horn and then you got to get the ring out of the tub.Big job!

[Rev Rob]

For those of you who use a silver plated mouthpiece. Silver is a natural anti microbial material. Just keep your mouthpiece clean. A rinse in warm water and drying with a paper towel should do the trick. As with the rest of your tuba - blow and don't inhale.