Looking for a score

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Think what you want, but unless you had written permission, you were breaking the law. That's why each part has a copyright notice at the bottom of the first page. Fines, if caught, can be up to $10,000 per page per copy.

Are there any cases of such a violation being prosecuted? I doubt it. It's sort of like how everyone breaks the speed limit from time to time. As long as the school/director legally purchased the music and is simply making enough copies for his/her own band I really doubt anyone would ever be prosecuted for that.

Folks who come on here and ask if someone would kindly send them a pdf of __________, though, really piss me off.

[THE TUBA]

I know that we're getting off topic, but I really like the system that they have over there at lowbrassmusic.com. You can chose to either buy your music in the physical form or download it as a password-protected .pdf file. It is really convenient when I'm bored on a Saturday night living in the middle of nowhere and I get the urge to do some sightreading.

[pgym]

Are there any cases of such a violation being prosecuted? I doubt it. It's sort of like how everyone breaks the speed limit from time to time. As long as the school/director legally purchased the music and is simply making enough copies for his/her own band I really doubt anyone would ever be prosecuted for that.

Prosecutions, no, because most copyright infringement actions never reach that stage; but publishers and publishing associations do occasionally audit school district, arising from tips from disgruntled former employees and/or students. Audits are typically resolved through negotiated settlements involving purchasing legal copies plus a fine calculated at multiple times the cost of purchasing legal copies. Depending on the scope of infringement, the multiple can run into the 20s.

Do you really want your future employment to hang on not pissing off the wrong student?

Folks who come on here and ask if someone would kindly send them a pdf of __________, though, really piss me off.

So could someone kindly send me a pdf of the Creative Commons Public Domain mark?

[tokuno]

I know that we're getting off topic, but I really like the system that they have over there at lowbrassmusic.com. . .

Talking about "off topic" . . . am I the only one who saw "Looking for a score", and thought, "Gee, it's nice to be married and not have to worry about things like that"

20th anniversary on May 1st

[thetubawizard]

I apologize for making so many of you mad from my post. I did not know that it was illegal to sell your original or lend a copy. In every group I have ever played with, I have only ever gotten copies, even in college. Most groups made us return copies but many did not. Even in my lessons I was always given copies of exercises, etudes and solos to learn and perform. Please believe me when I say that it was never my intention to insult or anger anyone. Your reactions were a response to my lack of knowledge in an area no one ever informed me properly about. Thank you for enlightening me on the subject. I will be more aware of this in the future.

[tokuno]

To physically lend a hard copy is fine. To create a new copy to distribute without payment is theft. It is quite simple. I am not getting into the finer points on this. I am keeping it very plain and simple. Do not create a photocopy, a scan, a PDF, a homemade Finale file. This is theft. Loaning a hard copy is completely alright in my book. It is yours to loan. But if you have to purchase a thing like a book it only makes sense that making a duplicate of it to distribute is wrong.

I have a situation that just arose: I purchased a tuba/euph quartet, but one of our euphs reads only TC and the parts are available from the publisher only as BC.

What do you all do in cases like this (short of finding a different eupher or waiting for him to learn BC)? Would you transcribe it (I was gonna use Finale)?

Probably a question for the publisher, eh?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Prosecutions, no, because most copyright infringement actions never reach that stage; but publishers and publishing associations do occasionally audit school district, arising from tips from disgruntled former employees and/or students. Audits are typically resolved through negotiated settlements involving purchasing legal copies plus a fine calculated at multiple times the cost of purchasing legal copies. Depending on the scope of infringement, the multiple can run into the 20s.

So, can you point to any SPECIFIC incidents where a school/band director got fined for making extra copies of parts for a legally-purchased piece solely for his/her own band to use? Once again, I'm having difficulty believing that there would ever be a prosecution for having, say, 4 bassoons in your band but only 2 copies of the part. Call me crazy.

[Dan Schultz]

.... I have a situation that just arose: I purchased a tuba/euph quartet, but one of our euphs reads only TC and the parts are available from the publisher only as BC.

What do you all do in cases like this (short of finding a different eupher or waiting for him to learn BC)? Would you transcribe it (I was gonna use Finale)?

Probably a question for the publisher, eh?

This problem is fairly common. I've contacted publishers on several occasions and they've always come forward with treble clef parts. After all... they probably already have the notation in software so it's a relatively easy matter to change the clef or key. I've even had them respond with .pdf files.

My brass band is constantly handing me treble clef tuba parts. I know the bass clef parts are usually available but no one seems to remember to ask for them when they buy a new chart.

I've found most publishers to be pretty flexible. Your mileage may vary.

[pgym]

I apologize for making so many of you mad from my post.

I don't think anyone is mad (well, maybe Todd, but he's just an angry old fart generally, so that doesn't count), as much as wanting to discourage copyright infringement.

Thing is, several members of TubeNet are composers, arrangers, and/or publishers, and it's hard enough for them to make ANY money, much less a living wage, off of their music, even without copyright infringement entering the picture, and, in the long run it's in ALL of our interest to ensure composers/arrangers and publishers can make a living off of their work, because if they can't, the flow of new music will dry up, and we'll all be the poorer for it.

I did not know that it was illegal to sell your original or lend a copy.

It's not illegal to sell or lend an original that you own (which may not be the case if the original was delivered electronically e.g., a pdf, ebook, etc.). It's only illegal to sell or lend a copy, or to keep a copy of an original that you no longer own.

In every group I have ever played with, I have only ever gotten copies, even in college. Most groups made us return copies but many did not. Even in my lessons I was always given copies of exercises, etudes and solos to learn and perform. Please believe me when I say that it was never my intention to insult or anger anyone. Your reactions were a response to my lack of knowledge in an area no one ever informed me properly about. Thank you for enlightening me on the subject. I will be more aware of this in the future.

Unfortunately, your situation is all too common.

It's a sad fact that many teachers, music directors, and musical ensembles DON'T make even the slightest effort to respect copyrights and therefore don't inform their students what is and is not permitted.

So, can you point to any SPECIFIC incidents where a school/band director got fined for making extra copies of parts for a legally-purchased piece solely for his/her own band to use?

You mean besides the school district I attended that was slapped with an audit the year after I graduated from HS and the private school I negotiated a settlement for?

tokuno wrote:
.... I have a situation that just arose: I purchased a tuba/euph quartet, but one of our euphs reads only TC and the parts are available from the publisher only as BC.

What do you all do in cases like this (short of finding a different eupher or waiting for him to learn BC)? Would you transcribe it (I was gonna use Finale)?

Probably a question for the publisher, eh?

This problem is fairly common. I've contacted publishers on several occasions and they've always come forward with treble clef parts. After all... they probably already have the notation in software so it's a relatively easy matter to change the clef or key. I've even had them respond with .pdf files.

What he said.

[PMeuph]

In every group I have ever played with, I have only ever gotten copies, even in college. Most groups made us return copies but many did not. Even in my lessons I was always given copies of exercises, etudes and solos to learn and perform. Please believe me when I say that it was never my intention to insult or anger anyone. Your reactions were a response to my lack of knowledge in an area no one ever informed me properly about. Thank you for enlightening me on the subject. I will be more aware of this in the future.

Unfortunately, your situation is all too common.

It's a sad fact that many teachers, music directors, and musical ensembles DON'T make even the slightest effort to respect copyrights and therefore don't inform their students what is and is not permitted.

I've encountered this quite a bit. At the 3 schools I've attended so far, many/most of the other students were unaware of some of the limits of the law. Surprisingly, some full-time faculty that I have met are unaware of the limits of Intellectual Property.

*I informed a choir director(with an MMUS and 10 years of paid conducting experience), that even though he had bought the music, he had to buy parts for all members of his choir and that he had to fill a report with SOCAN (equivalent to ASCAP) and pay royalties. He had never heard of that before...

[BVD Press]

What an interesting long thread. One thing I agree 100% on is how uneducated so many are in regards to laws of all sorts. Not just music...

Some odds and ends from a publisher who spends too much time engraving music:

1. I have made every piece so both bass and treble parts are included.

2. EVERY piece I have done has good page turns except the Trombone part in Ewald three that holds an F dotted half note across a page turn. That said, the F is tied to another F. The was a big pet peeve of mine so I spend the time so I don't need to kiss Elephant's butt...

3. Digital music: we are damned if we do or damned if we don't. Include extra copies for all or just one copy for each? People will complain either way.

4. Prices are high and we recently went up about 30%, but we are still cheap in comparison to so many others. It is hard not to raise prices. When I did a comparison of costs and from 7 years ago our toner went up $45 per cartridge, 8.5x11 paper by $8 and 11x17 paper by $13. Per ream...What is the right price for a solo with piano? Quartet, Quintet, etc. Pricing is a pain in the butt. We can't win here either. I try to price where the customer feels like they are getting a fair trade for the piece that is purchased. Put another way, would I pay that much as a customer?

5. Nothing should go out of print unless it is for a specific reason. Technology makes it easy to produce a copy anywhere at anytime as long as the files are digitized.

6. If you bought something and lost a score or part, just email me.

7. If you need an alternate part, just email me. I generally won't send a hard copy, but will send a PDF for your use only. The amount of Horn parts I have converted to Trombone is a bit staggering over the years.

8. Until you are on the recording or publishing side of the business, you will not understand what it means to feed yourself or your family through sales. I expect people to steal, but have to hope that there are more honest than dishonest people. There isn't a single person here that has not made a copy in a pinch.

I am not sure I actually said anything, but that is all I have tonight...

[Dan Schultz]

....
1. I have made every piece so both bass and treble parts are included.
.......
7. If you need an alternate part, just email me. I generally won't send a hard copy, but will send a PDF for your use only. The amount of Horn parts I have converted to Trombone is a bit staggering over the years.

+100
I forget the exact circumstances but Bryan worked with me on a piece a while back until I had exactly what I wanted.

[eupher61]

Think what you want, but unless you had written permission, you were breaking the law. That's why each part has a copyright notice at the bottom of the first page. Fines, if caught, can be up to $10,000 per page per copy.

Are there any cases of such a violation being prosecuted? I doubt it. It's sort of like how everyone breaks the speed limit from time to time. As long as the school/director legally purchased the music and is simply making enough copies for his/her own band I really doubt anyone would ever be prosecuted for that.

Folks who come on here and ask if someone would kindly send them a pdf of __________, though, really piss me off.

I can't remember the specific schools involved, but I know of at least 2 colleges and a few high schools who have been busted. So, no, it doesn't happen often, but it can and does. All it takes is one pi$$ed off parent or student who knows just enough about the law. There are some rights holders who grant permission carte blanche as long as 1)the copies are used for rehearsal purposes only, not performance and 2) only one school/organization uses the original and parts. Those do not include loaning from school to school within the same district, even.

I think it was the ACDA (choral directors assn) convention who got busted also...they sang "Happy Birthday" to someone at a moment's notice, and there was no submission of that tune for the convention program. The rep from whoever the rights holder is, stood up and said "you owe us". They were paid without complaint.

Ever wonder why things have to be submitted ahead of time? For just that reason.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

There are some rights holders who grant permission carte blanche as long as 1)the copies are used for rehearsal purposes only, not performance and 2) only one school/organization uses the original and parts. Those do not include loaning from school to school within the same district, even.

That's exactly the situation I've been asking about. Is it really reasonable to ask band programs to buy 2 entire sets of parts because they have 4 bassoon players and a set only comes with 2 bassoon parts? I sure don't think so. And I'm still curious if that's the sort of violation pgym is referring to. If it is, that's really unfortunate for everyone.

So, should I turn our concert band with 6 tubas in?

[eupher61]

Copying is copying. You can buy single parts from publishers. Most groups don't. They should, according to the law.

Get permission or buy. No real gray area.

[BVD Press]

If a publisher has to worry about you making a copy of a bassoon part to have a successful concert, they have more issues than most of us can comprehend.

On a related note, you have 4 bassoon players? Damn...

[tofu]

6. If you bought something and lost a score or part, just email me.

I can absolutely vouch that Bryan does this. The second euph player in our tuba quartet lost the parts to a couple of pieces and Bryan got them to us the next day. I also think his prices are very fair. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to recommend BVD.

[Ken Herrick]

6. If you bought something and lost a score or part, just email me.

I can absolutely vouch that Bryan does this. The second euph player in our tuba quartet lost the parts to a couple of pieces and Bryan got them to us the next day. I also think his prices are very fair. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to recommend BVD.

Now, THAT is the sort of endorsement one doesn't mind seeing here!

This thread has had some interesting aspects but, I can't help wondering why the OP, being a wizard, couldn't just conjure up what he needed.




Follow the yellow brick road.......

[pgym]

There are some rights holders who grant permission carte blanche as long as 1)the copies are used for rehearsal purposes only, not performance and 2) only one school/organization uses the original and parts. Those do not include loaning from school to school within the same district, even.

That's exactly the situation I've been asking about. Is it really reasonable to ask band programs to buy 2 entire sets of parts because they have 4 bassoon players and a set only comes with 2 bassoon parts?

No, it's not, which is why virtually all publishers provide a mechanism for either purchasing or making a specified number of copies of individual parts at a very nominal cost.

And I'm still curious if that's the sort of violation pgym is referring to.

Yes, it is.

And the stupid thing is, in both cases, the private school and the school district could have saved themselves a buttload of money and avoided the embarrassment if they had simply contacted the publishers and purchased required parts.

[Mark]

Bryan is one of the good guys.

+1

When I need music, I always check BVD Press and Cimarron first. If Bryan has what I am looking for I would rather buy it from him than anyone else.