On playing BBb

[Sam Gnagey]

There's been a resurgence of interest in orchestral players (ie. Kniffen, Pokorny) trying BBb horns. I thought I'd give it a try too. In December I picked out a Wessex (4-p, 1-R BBb-1291 clone) from several and bought it as an inexpensive way to go on a new playing adventure. Since then I've found lots of uses for it in orchetra..... Fountains, Prokofiev Cinderella Ballet and in a couple weeks Shostakovich Symphony #10. The large bore BBb instrument has made the Snedecor Low Etudes a great workout for my air and ultimately a more pleasing experience than playing them on CC. It really has made a difference in my playing. After experimenting with mouthpieces I've settled on the Laskey 30B with an adapter to make it fit the large receiver on the Wessex. Laskey's 30B with the Euro shank would probably be ideal.
To be clear I don't have any affiliation with Wessex, but I'd reccommend these BBbs to any of my colleagues who are interested in pursuing an ecconomical BBb for playing large orchestral works. Andy and Johnathon have been very helpful and appreciative of my feedback on their product. I believe that they're truly interested in providing good service and a quality product at an affordable price.
I hope this doesn't start a lot of flaming about Chinese clones, but does encourage some players to consider having and using a large BBb on appropriate literature in orchestra.
And I'll add that it's been fun playing it in brass band as well.

[Lectron]

I purchased one for myselves some time ago and it is a nice instrument to play. Some intonation issues, but none making any big problems.

It was to be a temporarerly/backup instrument while waiting on.....
Well I don´t know what I was waiting on when I purchased it, but
I was hunting a Holton or York.

Anyways...I decided to keep it as it is very compact compared to it´s sound
and real fun to play. Very versetail. A full bottom, and easy going in the
upper register. Took me some hours getting used to, but there again. Everery
instrument does

This is a clone of their 440hz model, but stil I play with quite some pull @ 442
Might indicate they´re running a bit sharp thou I am a ´sharp player´

This instrument has less anoying issues like the ones found on the JBEB-700.
The plating was also VERY nice. The tuning slides took some work thou, and
I also spend some time with the valves.

I use an Am shank MP BTW, having tried Euro I cannot say that´s in any way better.

[Lectron]

..

[Mitch]

I have to chime in here on my satisfaction playing BBb in orchestra. I had a hiatus from playing for 4 years some time back due to medical reasons. I'd sold a couple fantastic horns. When looking again, the most satisfying instrument I found (and that I could afford) was a large BBb.

The first time I had it in an orchestral setting, I found it extremely easy to blend with the trombones, which makes sense; the overtones in the tuba are going to align with the overtones of the trombones. But the rest of the orchestra also noted their approval, including an en masse bow waving of nearly all strings after a comment by the conductor. So after years of being an "Excuse me? BBb? I don't think so," snob, I was converted. I had to sell the BBb once I made a new commitment to playing again, in order to buy, IMHO, an exceptional Thor, but given the financial wherewithal to do so, I'd buy the BBb back in a heart beat.

It so happens...it was a Gnagey BBb. He hadn't yet cut it to CC, and it was a good thing. It's a fantastic BBb.

[jeopardymaster]

Welcome to the club, Sam. I'm glad to see folks coming around on this. Prok 5 (just to name one piece) on a BBb is way more fun than on a CC. I've also found it a bit less stressful in a wind band setting to opt for a BBb if that's all the other guy plays.

[iiipopes]

And then there are those of us who play in community band settings and can only afford a good, used BBb of reputable brand.

[bort]

Sam, I have to ask... why not just build yourself a BBb? Or are the bells shorter and raise the pitch when you do the 2341 conversion? (Oh... just read the "large bore" part, maybe that's it!)

[bort]

I've been using a big rotary BBb for some stuff over the last year or so...

What make/model?

[Steve Marcus]

The first tuba that I owned was a Conn 25J--yes, the 4-valve with the original 24" upright bell. When I took it to a tuba/euph workshop, younger participants would ask, "Is that a 6/4 tuba?"

I had to sell that horn to help pay for my 4/4 Nirschl CC, which is an absolutely great instrument. But I miss that 25J. With all the recent discussion about the usefulness of a large BBb in orchestra, it would have been an interesting experience bringing it to rehearsal/performance. The 25J may or may not have been the ideal orchestral BBb (I'd strongly prefer front-action valves, among other reasons), but it certainly would have cost much less than buying any new 6/4 BBb horn.

[Sam Gnagey]

But I miss that 25J.

Is there a good reason to play a CC rather than a BBb other than the usual "orchestras play in sharp keys" excuse?? I promise I used to be a CC snob. No more.

I think the bulk of the orchestral literature is best played on CC. There is a natural brightness and projection with my CC that makes life easier in orchestra on a day-to-day basis. I discovered this when I was a student of Mr. Bell's in the mid 1960s at IU, and it's worked for me ever since. I find it stimulating to use BBb now when it seems appropriate.

[iiipopes]

Knock-offs do seem to be the way to go.

It would be really cool if you could own a looks-alike 4-valve new-style King 2341 BBb and a shiny 5-valve CC version of the same tuba for only $5000 for the pair.

Bloke, how many arguments are you trying to start or fights are you trying to pick with that statement?

[Uncle Buck]

There is a natural brightness and projection with the my CC that makes life easier in orchestra on a day-to-day basis.

Roger Bobo has expressed that opinion, too, in some of his essay writing.

[Jess Haney]

Being someone who grew up on BBb due to brass banding, I have used my BBb for everything. I rarely play in orchestras for two reasons, 1 no patience for waiting (rests) and 2 most tuba players covent those positions. But I did do a symphony concert in October that had Dvorak Carnivale, Night on Bald Mountain, Enigma Variations, and Peer Gynt. I did it all on a 6/4 and the conductor loved it. The orchestra ate it up and the trombones were beyond thrilled. The usuall guy is great player and playes on a 4/4 CC but it doesnt hold any sway to a large BBb. The key thing is a bonus on CC for orchestra but if you have a good proficiency in sharps on a BBb horn...Then why not. I know plenty of CC snobs and I have played C horns, but unless I had an extra $8,000 to throw at a new horn I will just stick with my current setup. CC is lighter and brighter in sound and timbre but the shure power and dark timbre of a large BBb is undeniably better for some pieces. Why do you think when Conn was putting out those massive BBbs they called them Grand Orchestrals.

[Frank Byrne]

After experimenting with mouthpieces I've settled on the Laskey 30B with an adapter to make it fit the large receiver on the Wessex.

Interesting, Sam, that you settled on the Laskey 30B, as that is the one I found worked best on my Miraphone 1281 BB-flat after trying a number of options. I am still not sure it is 100% what I want, and hope someday to experiment with the fabled "Blokepieces."

[Ken Herrick]

I have passes this on before but, it seems appropriate here: When Jake first tried my King 4rv Monster BBb, he said that if he had had one when he was at Curtis, he never would have switched to CC. He was adamant he wanted to buy mine then and there. I got another one for him. Don Heeren came along shortly after & was desperate for a quality instrrument to use in the Denver Symphony.

Back in the 60s & 70s quite a number of "top pros" used BBb regularly.

My personal feeling is that a lot of those old Kings (1241 & 2341) should be fully restored, with some tweeks and mods, to make VERY good, all round tubas which would easily match much more expensive new ones, be they BBb or CC.

[eupher61]

I've tried a couple of different mouthpieces with my Martin, and the color changes are pretty remarkable. Bach 18, 24AW, and 22...Schilke Helleberg II, Marcinkiwicz H2 and PT (old) 9. Totally different sounds, but the PT and the Schilke seem to be the most controllable on it. The PT has been my F mouthpiece for 20+ years, so that sort of makes sense.

[jeopardymaster]

Ah, here we go again. For me, the difference is in response. When I play a BBb, I find some notes in the staff (B natural, C, Eb, F# in particular) are harder to grip confidently than on a CC, but the low range is a whole lot more resonant. It takes just a bit of settling in before I'm 100% comfortable, but the longer I linger on one or the other, the later the settling in occurs.

[EdFirth]

From Wind and Song, Jake auditioned for Curtis on an Eb with the fourth valve strapped down. His teacher was Phil Donatelli who played the Philadelphia Orchestra. Stokowski ordered a C tuba from York that would "sound like an organ pipe". I'm not sure how the deal went but Donatelli owned it but found it almost impossible to hold and sold it to Jake. When I first went to see him he told me there were only two of the big Yorks and he owned both of them.There's a picture in one of the two Jake books where he's holding what looks to be a Bb Cerveny. As a side note, I had the good fortune to take lessons with Herb Wekselblatt(New York Met) and he played almost everything on a Sanders Bb.He also told me that when conductors would ask him to "use the F " on this or that piece that he'd pull out an Olds(like a 99 but with four valves) and cover those high parts on it. And I don't think he was kidding. Ed

[iiipopes]

Ah, here we go again. For me, the difference is in response. When I play a BBb, I find some notes in the staff (B natural, C, Eb, F# in particular) are harder to grip confidently than on a CC, but the low range is a whole lot more resonant. It takes just a bit of settling in before I'm 100% comfortable, but the longer I linger on one or the other, the later the settling in occurs.

Let's see:
B natural: BBb tuba, 2+4; CC tuba 2
C natural: BBb tuba, 4; CC tuba open
F sharp (G flat): BBb tuba 2+3; CC tuba 2

Of course there will be response differences.

[eupher61]

So then, playing anything in Eb or Ab on a CC should be stuffy and unfocused, just as C# F# on a BBb. Individual instruments, maybe. But not generically.