holton on ebay

[bort]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 30401&rd=1

Anyone have experience with a horn like this? Looks like it'd be pretty cool if it had a 4th valve...

[MikeMason]

i have a much less expensive positive experience with this type of horn. all you need is a MW2165 valveset -1500-2000 and a coulple hundred bucks to let Albert at Baltimore brass solder it on for you. cosmetics extra. mine just happened to look decent already...email me if you want more details...

[Shockwave]

I bought the last bell-front version of that horn on ebay. It does not need 4 valves at all, the false tones are excellent and the low valved notes are easily lipped into tune.

-Eric

[cjk]

Yup - I can tell you that it is going to sell for a LOT of money.
...
3. You have to be prepared to pay whatever the seller will get for that horn. I can tell you that there are two serious bidders on the previous bids list - this isn't to keep you from buying the horn, just to let you know that you are probably going to pay top dollar if you win this auction.

Harold, Are you always this negative or is this just the FUD you post on Tubenet when you want something??

[MikeMason]

the valve slides were already long enough. they have a little groove in each one to let you know where the"default" BBb slide setting should be. this allows for push-ins past the normal "0" point. great for c and b in the staff. Albert says it just pretty much lined right up with a couple brace replacements. It also only took 2 weeks at the time(last spring).

[Liberty Mo]

Yup - I can tell you that it is going to sell for a LOT of money.
...
3. You have to be prepared to pay whatever the seller will get for that horn. I can tell you that there are two serious bidders on the previous bids list - this isn't to keep you from buying the horn, just to let you know that you are probably going to pay top dollar if you win this auction.

Harold, Are you always this negative or is this just the FUD you post on Tubenet when you want something??

I also wonder why everytime someone raises a question about an interesting horn on Ebay, Harold throws out a warning that you going to have to pay top dollar to get it.

[TexTuba]

.

[Rick Denney]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 30401&rd=1

Anyone have experience with a horn like this? Looks like it'd be pretty cool if it had a 4th valve...

It looks pretty cool without a fourth valve.

By the way, I played Mike Mason's horn before he got it (I was at Baltimore Brass on the right day, just by good fortune). Yes, the plan works, and it works fine.

But there's something endearing about those clunky Holton valves.

Rick "who thinks the bell on this one would not be an improvement, and won't be bidding" Denney

[Rick Denney]

1) are those Conn valve caps in the linked fotos to the valves?

2) the CASINGS are what go south on these horns (the term is "obround" or "non-cylindrical"), any of you serious talkers ask the seller about THAT?

3) Adding a B&M valveset just creates another custom-built tuba, using the body and bows of this big beast, and for what "collectors" seem to pay for these, that makes the pieces for such a custom-built tuba very cost-prohibitive

4) An aside thought, anyone know why we persist in referring to these custom-built horns by the name that was initally engraved in it's parts?

1. The valve caps look just like the ones on my Holton 345.

2. Casings can be bored to be cylindrical. But it doesn't matter if the buyer decides to replace the valve block.

3. The Meinl-Weston valve block seems nearly identical to the Holton valve block, except that the slides are mostly straight and there are no kinks in the second and third-valve knuckles, not to mention the stepped up fourth-valve tubing. Does Meinl-Weston use B&M valves? If so, that's a point in their favor. Of course, no two Holton valve blocks are very close to being the same. I've seen them with one offset valve and three in a straight line (like mine), and with the fourth offset like the first to make a curve (ala York).

4. Because it's the outer branches that give a horn most of its characteristic sound.

Rick "who thinks the M-W valves and branches may be too solidly braced compared to the real Holton" Denney

[MikeMason]

Albert cut an inch or so off my main slide. gave me more tuning options. now my f is a little flat, low BBb a little sharp. most everything else can be handled with a slide pull. some people want a horn that just plays in tune, this horn is not for them. after 3-4 months, the intonation problems went away as my brain/chops/slidepulling got coordinated. all this to say, i wouldn't consider the 3rd partial unuseable. i guess it depends on your standards and what you are willing to do to play a certain horn.

[Rick Denney]

1) are the ones on your Holton Conn valve buttons?

2) casings can only be "bored" so far....not like there is a limitless amount of metal there. To be fair, when I say non-cylindrical we're talking a bit more than a few thousands of an inch out of round (decent oil really does fill a surprising large gap.) Think .060 total indicator reading (TIR) variatioon in cyliundricity. Not uncommon. ALSO not fix-able.

3) Those valve blocks and their branches ARE very different, in some ways that is a good thing I suppose.

4) What about the method of assembly? Amount of Bracing? Number of times the bell has been re-spun, hammered thin, or cracks filled and feathered to be nearly indiscernable? Are you saying the horn you called a Dillon that Matt built out of a bisher and other parts is a bisher?

1.) Oh, you mean the buttons. Mine are Yamahas, installed by Lee Stofer. The originals were the same ones Holton used on trumpets, and it was like playing the bare ends of the valve stems. I thought you meant the caps.

2.) How do they get that out of round? My valves all spin happily in the cases with no sign of binding, and I would think they would be unusably loose if they could do that in such an egg-shaped casing.

3.) The valve block on my Holton sticks out to the front of the instrument so far that I don't think variations in the valve branches would have that much effect. As Mike told us, all Albert had to do to install the M-W valve body to the Holton was solder it in place and make a couple of braces. That tells me the dogleg fit and the leadpipe was still in an acceptable place, plus all the slides he room to be pulled out. It looked like a Holton to me, but I didn't lay mine up next to it to make comparisons.

4.) When Tony had his Holton refurbished by Dan Oberloh, it was still a Holton, wasn't it? Even though Dan corrected not only wear and tear, but mostly idiot mistakes made at the factory. Lee Stofer corrected a couple of big factory mistaked on mine, and it's still a Holton. The CSO York has replacement valves, according to Arnold Jacobs, and it is still a York (pistons, of course, not the whole valve block). Matt's creation is a bit different. It had Nirschl outer branches and a Beuscher bell, all of which had been retapered in the CC conversion. I don't call it a Beuscher, but rather a Dillon/Beuscher/Nirschl. A cut Holton is still a Rusk-cut Holton or a Johnson-cut Holton, etc. But a Holton with a new valve block is still a Holton in all the parts that make sound, it seems to me. What else would it be? All old tubas that have been overhauled and repaired are different in their assembly from the original.

Rick "scared to replace his bell in any case, because those ironed out wrinkles might be important, heh, heh" Denney

[Bandmaster]

Yup - I can tell you that it is going to sell for a LOT of money.

Then how come a little over a year ago nobody bid on the Holton 345 that is seen in my avartar? I bought it on eBay a year ago January and was the only bidder, so I got it cheap. And it already had a 4th valve. I got to have fun playing it for 9 months BEFORE it went to Dan Oberloh.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Dale,
I think someone is confused. Maybe its me. .060" is a lot of slop. You don't get that from simply playing the horn. Building up a valve .030" on the piston surface is possible but the rest or the horn is probably shot.

There could have been a sleeve but it was probably done during manufacture and not as a form of repair. Valve repairs in the old days prior to 1920 (and in some cases, much later), would have been done by replacing the piston with one that was oversized and it would require that the instrument have had to be sent to the maker for such work (common practice). Coppering and nickel plate was doable but it was more simple for the factory to make replacement pistons then to build up and resize the originals. Small repair shops often coppered pistons and lapped them into the cylinder by hand with varying results in quality but they were not working on horns that were 100 years old. Most instruments were replaced back then because many horns that were fifty years old in 1920 were almost unusable with respect to intonation. Valve rebuilding today is for the most part, straight forward with minimal surprises. It requires tooling, skills and the ability to focus on the details. I see valves all the time that are in such poor condition that I question whether they are even worth rebuilding. But in the end it simply comes down to the level of skill and ability of machining possessed by the one responsible for performing the needed work.

Andy,

Whats your point?
Sure, sleeving could be done. I could also whittle a new valve assembly out of a solid block of brass with a file and my swiss army knife which would take a lot of time, cost a lot of $$$$ and be about as pointless as sleeving the cylinder to begin with.

I agree with Joe. The machine work is rather involved and would still require honing the cylinder prior to installing a sleeve that would then also require honing as would the piston. The whole approach of sleeving is a waist of time and effort. If the valves are that trashed, replace the entire assembly or throw a sheet over it and go find another horn.

Valves can and do get worn (sometimes badly) but once properly rebuilt will last so long you really don't need to worry about it having to be done again in your life time. Most messed up tuba valves are really old (50 years or more) and worn through use or they have been damaged by unskilled hands trying to fix valves that have been damaged by accident or by other unskilled hands attempting the previously mentioned. I have had great success rebuilding the .750 Holton valves. They do have issues with the casing threads falling apart but that can be repaired in such a way that it is difficult to tell it was even damaged as can the Valve stems, guides, ports and those stupid dinky buttons. By the by, the MW 2165 valve block is a near purfect match for the Holton though the tuning slides need a little mod work. I order slides that are proper BBb length when ordering the valve blocks from Melton. I prefer not to use the open wrap crooks as I think they look a bit odd on the Holton and York tubas and do nothing to improve its playability. If you are just replacing the block, use the original slides.



I have included what the kit looks like when I get it. This one is going to a York BBb three valve. Also shown is the fifth rotor. Takes a bit more then an afternoon to fit and assemble all this stuff,



Considerable soldering and polishing skills, a good deal of equiptment and



a couple of days (maybe more), if you want it done right.


Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Saving the world, one horn at a time...

[Joe Baker]

Shucks, Doc, why don't you head up here to the hills of E. Tennessee? Plenty o' work for a lawman. We've sent half of ours off to the pokey in the last couple of years!
___________________________
Joe Baker, who acknowledges Doc'd have to learn to like pork BBQ....

[Joe Baker]

You guys forget; Doc is from Texas. He's accustomed to good beef brisket. Yeah, pork's alright, but it's no substiture for a really first-rate slab of beef.

Although, Doc, there's a big billboard here in Knoxville for Shiner Bock!
_____________________________
Joe Baker, who misses Texas barbecue but not Texas heat.

[Lew]

I'll stick with this. You can keep yer cross-cut chuck drizzled in

Since when did they begin using ceramic plates and real utensils in Tennessee? I thought they only used paper and plastic.