Junior high tubas

[tubaribonephone]

I have a friend who is a junior high band director and he is looking to buy 1 or 2 full size tubas with 4 valves. My first thought was the tuba that I had in junior high, which was a YBB-321. I've played one since I've been out of junior high, and I'm confident in still recommending them, if anything for their durability. That being said, I'm not a huge fan of rotary valve tubas in junior high, unless the director is confident in his students being able to take more detailed care of the tubas.

So, here's my question: What would everybody out there recommend as a good, all around 4 valve 4/4 tuba?

PS. I'm being totally honest here... I've searched the whole forum but could not find anything about purchasing tubas for a junior high... If you can find something, please feel free to link to it. Thanks!!!

[Tubajug]

You can't go wrong with Kings, either the 1241 or 2341. They have front action valves, so I don't know if that would be damage risk for your friend or not, but there you go. My $.02

[iiipopes]

King tubas have been a go-to standard for about a century, because the valves are nested; they are an "easy blow" with good intonation; they are not mouthpiece sensitive; and they withstand hard use. Moreover, any shop worth its tools will have a morgue of crash parts making repairs less expensive.

Yes, they are large for a junior high player. My junior high had a fiberglass King souzy with a Wenger chair, and the high school had Wenger "tuba tamers" stands for the King tubas for those whose stature was still growing.

I respectfully disagree with getting 186's, or even 185's or 184's for junior high or high school. There is more to go wrong with exposed linkage.

RANT: This is where the manufacturers have done a great disservice to school music programs by not continuing the small Eb tubas. I have ranted on this before, so I won't waste bandwidth. Anyone interested can search my posts on the subject.

[The Tuba Fish]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=55415&p=472597#p472597" target="_blank

I PM'd- but this is a better horn than a YBB-321, IMHO.

[tofu]

King tubas have been a go-to standard for about a century, because the valves are nested; they are an "easy blow" with good intonation; they are not mouthpiece sensitive; and they withstand hard use. Moreover, any shop worth its tools will have a morgue of crash parts making repairs less expensive.

Agreed. I do think the most indestructible designs are top action though. Look how many of those old Besson top actions saw decades of abuse and kept on ticking. Of course they were built like tanks, weighed as much and were not the most ergonomically designed!

I respectfully disagree with getting 186's, or even 185's or 184's for junior high or high school. There is more to go wrong with exposed linkage.

I respectively disagree with this. It depends on the program, the instructors and the kids. My high school bought 3 new Rudy Meinls in the early '70's. They still had them and they still looked and played well last time I saw them a couple years ago. I'd say they got their monies worth with 40 years of service. True it is an exceptional HS with exceptional kids - current principal trumpet of the CSO is a graduate. I think a lot of programs could be well served by 186.

RANT: This is where the manufacturers have done a great disservice to school music programs by not continuing the small Eb tubas.

I think you're blaming the wrong guys. The manufacturers did what any rational business does. Don't make what they don't want to buy. The schools stopped buying them so the manufacturers stopped making them.

[Ferguson]

Miraphone 186. It is a rotor tuba. Both tubas have maintenance issues, but it is easy to break a stem, destroy a valve guide than to drop a rotor and destroy it. Or there are always Chinese horns for students to play, and when they get into college and go into music, they can buy a brand name horn.

I disagree. The 186 is tall with a small diameter bell, and it's tippy. It's also a fairly large bore. It's not the best choice for a junior high school player, or a junior high school repair tech. There are easier to play instruments that are less easily damaged. YMMV.

I also don't recommend any off-brand Chinese horns for school use. Parts availability is an important issue. Long term durability is another. I think it's better to buy it right and buy it once.

SF

[Ferguson]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=55415&p=472597#p472597" target="_blank

[link goes to Weril]

I PM'd- but this is a better horn than a YBB-321, IMHO.

It may be a better player than the 321, but just try to get parts for it. Long term durability and ease of repair trumps playability for a junior high school IMHO.

SF

[The Tuba Fish]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=55415&p=472597#p472597" target="_blank

[link goes to Weril]

I PM'd- but this is a better horn than a YBB-321, IMHO.

It may be a better player than the 321, but just try to get parts for it. Long term durability and ease of repair trumps playability for a junior high school IMHO.

SF

The Weril almost a perfect copy, physically. All Yamaha YBB-321 parts are fully compatible with this horn.

[Ferguson]

The Weril almost a perfect copy, physically. All Yamaha YBB-321 parts are fully compatible with this horn.

No kidding? That's a good idea. I can support that.

SF

[DaTweeka]

My high school, and the feeder middle school I came from, both use St. Petersburg 202N's from Tuba Exchange. They're pretty solid horns (I do most of the repair work that needs doing as it is) and they play just fine. They may be a bit high on the budgeting side, but they're worth the money, in my opinion. Yet another 2 cents.

[ken k]

Conn 5J

The Yamaha 321 is very large and I think awkward to hold due to the upright valves, especially for an average sized middle school kid (I teach middle school, btw) The Kings will be on the large size also for most MS kids however you can hug the thing on your lap. The Conn 5J is a smaller 4/4 horn but gets a nice full sound and has similar playing characteristics to the King.

A plus for the 321 is that the valves are protected from getting side-swiped and bent.

kenk

[ralphbsz]

We have fared very well with Yamaha 321. Right now, we're buying a second one (hasn't quite arrived yet), to be more accurate the Holton clone of the 321. A few years ago, we had a loaner 4-valve King, which must have been one of the models mentioned above (but then the high school needed it back).

I disagree with the size issue. A typical 7th or 8th grader can hold the Yamaha while playing. My son's sidekick (a.k.a. second chair tuba player) is a pretty short 7th grader, and has absolutely no problem with his 321.

And they are easy to repair, and parts are easy to get. Finding a repair technician that is willing to tackle a rotary valve can be hard (even here, in the VERY dense and wealthy SF bay area, it would require an extra 45 minute drive each way, our local guy won't do rotary valves). One more argument for piston horns: the whole band room can use the same valve oil; rotaries are more picky about oils, and that's too complicated for a middle school.

For small take-home instruments to practice at home, the Jupiter 378. They are small enough, parents can get them home without a minivan or pickup truck, and normal families in apartments can keep them at home. I would love it if some manufacturer made a small and inexpensive 4-valve 3/4 size instruments that was sturdy. The Jupiter 378 is also good as a spare in the band room (keep it in the cabinet, use it when something breaks, or when students can't be bothered to bring the giant instrument from home just for a short lick in jazz band). On the other hand, they don't sound great, and are hard for a beginner to make nice music on.

My son has been playing our own 4-valve rotary tuba (a MW25) for two years now; he brings it to school for concerts, dress rehearsals, and competitions. But you usually can't expect families to provide their own tubas.

[ralphbsz]

The Yamaha 321 is very large and I think awkward to hold due to the upright valves, especially for an average sized middle school kid (I teach middle school, btw) ...

- nothing top-action ...

You guys have way more experience than I do, but for us, the top-action has done perfectly well. Holding the tuba has not been a problem at all. And many of our students are physically smaller (large percentage of the population is from Asia).

Actually, in terms of physical size, the bari-sax seems to be more demanding.

[tofu]

I disagree with the size issue. A typical 7th or 8th grader can hold the Yamaha while playing. My son's sidekick (a.k.a. second chair tuba player) is a pretty short 7th grader, and has absolutely no problem with his 321.

I hear you - we had Conn 20J's when I was in middle school 4 decades ago. Nobody told us they were BATs. Nobody told us we would not be able to hold them due to being in Jr. High. They did tell us they were tubas and to please try not to drown out the rest of the band! I find kids to be amazingly adaptable, creative and will meet high expectations if you let them try. Instead of letting them learn how to adapt and figure out life's challenges we instead try to make things easy and simple requiring no stretching of young minds. If you have a really tiny kid - use a stand. They are pretty cheap and widely available.

I think the majority of middle school kids can reasonably hold and play most 4/4 sized horns. It really comes down to your bankroll, how long you plan to own, the culture of the program etc. I can certainly agree with what has been said about the durability of rotary horns - they won't handle abuse well. The majority of the high schools around here however seem to be using rotary Miraphones -186 or piston 1291's. They seem to hold up well - we've done a lot of joint concerts with several of the schools and the kids do seem to take
care of them. However, these are some of the best schools in the nation with some of the best music programs and that probably makes a difference.

[The Tuba Fish]

I've had a Weril twin of the 321 since 7th grade, and I found it only slightly overwhelming at that time (but I was a very small 7th grader)

[ralphbsz]

Rotary tubas (even "well-built" ones) don't take to kindly to that (jacked-up linkage / bent-or-broken rotor stems / etc.), and top-action piston tubas (when they hit the deck) end up with their slides all jacked up - which also really messes up the valve casings...and the bell - usually - is in the way of easily repairing badly-jacked valve casings on top-action tubas.

Understand now. Makes logical sense too: In a front-action pistol tuba, the valves are nicely hidden in the middle, and pretty safe from being tweaked.

In our school, the three (soon to be four) tubas have fared pretty well over the last three years. One of the Jupiter 378s was put down too hard on the bell, and is very slightly wrinkled. Probably not even worth repairing. Another Jupiter had lost the screws that hold the valve pack to the frame, and one of the valve casings became slightly bent, making the valve sticky (not full-on stuck, just sticky). Local tech straightened it out. Lesson learned: Apply loctite to these screws.

Instrument survival all depends on the individual student. We have students who destroy any instrument you give them (so they get really old ones that can't be made worse, or they have to bring their own instruments). We also have students that improve their loaner instruments (by cleaning them, or their parents bring them to a store to get overhauled and repaired, or they return them with a new pack of reeds and a new cleaning swab). Most of the students are reasonably careful, with occasional lapses of common sense. One of the skills of a band director is to know which students to trust with expensive instruments, like tubas or bari saxes.

They did tell us they were tubas and to please try not to drown out the rest of the band!

True story: The students who sit in front of my son's tuba section complained to the teacher a while ago: the low brass is playing too loud, it's making their ears hurt. My son got reprimanded by the school band teacher in front of the class for that. When he told his tuba teacher (a well known TubeNet personality), his teacher said something like "That's my boy! Do it again!" Appropriate smilies:

2. Does your band room use french horns? Don't these have rotary valves? Or are you using mellophones and ballad horns?

We have quite a few french horns (the instruments, not the players). You're right, our local repair guy does work on those (he overhauled them a few years ago, just in case they are ever needed). But he does refuse to work on rotary tubas; that's odd. Since we are only a concert band (not marching), we have no mellophones etc.

Sadly, we rarely have french horn players. For some reason, there is no tradition of doing so, and trumpet kids are very reluctant to move to the horn. This is particularly sad since the wife of our band teacher is a very accomplished french horn player and teacher herself. The only time we have one is is if there is a student who is already selected that instrument, and is taking private lessons.

By the way, similar things happen to double reeds: Even though we have a few loaner oboes, no kids ever want to take up oboe or bassoon. This year, we have one oboe player, and again: he's taking private lessons and using his own instrument. We just decided to buy one or two loaner bassoons, and next school year we'll try to add at least one oboe and bassoon to the band. The funny thing is that the neighboring middle school (same district, different band teacher) has a handful of double reeds. I guess that's just because they have a tradition of doing so. For the same reason, our band director tries to always have one 8th and one 7th grader each in the tuba and bari sax sections, so there is continuity.

[Trevor Bjorklund]

But he does refuse to work on rotary tubas; that's odd.

Give James Manganaro at Bridgepoint music (in Menlo Park) a call. He's not only a fine repairman, but also an excellent tubist. And I guarantee he'll do a great job with your rotary tubas!
http://bridgepointmusic.com/

[ralphbsz]

Give James Manganaro at Bridgepoint music (in Menlo Park) a call. He's not only a fine repairman, but also an excellent tubist. And I guarantee he'll do a great job with your rotary tubas!
http://bridgepointmusic.com/

He's the 45 minute drive! My kid's Meinl-Weston goes to James for everything, and the school's tubas go there once a year or so to take a bath (he has a full-size ultrasonic dip tank).