String Bass Sound

[circusboy]

I've been listening to a lot of string bass centered jazz lately--mostly Charlie Haden stuff--just wonderful.

I'm wondering about this crowd's thoughts on achieving that sort of sound on a tuba. I'm quite sure that it's possible, so would you say getting there is all about player technique? (if so, I'd like to hear some tips) Size/key/make of instrument? (if so, recommendations) Mouthpiece? (recommendations, too)

Thanks.

[Donn]

I believe that back in the day when the two were equally likely to be found in a jazz combo, the tuba of choice would have been a big BBb like a Conn 34J etc., bell front. Conn Helleberg mouthpiece seems like a likely choice, but got no idea really.

But by the time we get to Charlie Haden, those days are long gone, and a big 6/4 BBb would not be a very good bet. I'd think you'd be trying for a pretty "dry" sound, one way or another.

[Dan Schultz]

A good imitation of a string bass sound with a tuba requires a bit of practice. I think of that distinguishing pizacatto sound is in the decay of the string. It's gotta be the sound of a REAL upright bass. NOT one of those damned electric things!

The bigger and more resonant the tuba the better.

[Mark E. Chachich]

I agree with Dan about the pizacatto sound and the decay. I also think that the attack is as important (pizz. attack on a bass is an all or nothing type thing). The beginning part of the Arban's Book (trombone) is good for this. Remember that string bass transposes at the octive, so get used to doing this transposition. I also agree with Dan about the type of instrument.

It is my opinion that the best way to get close to the sound of the string bass on the tuba is to learn to play the string bass (string bass has been my double for over 35 years). Simply put, I know what a bass sounds like because I am a bass player. If you cannot double, listen to bass players.

Feel free to PM if you want more thoughts on this from me.

Mark

[iiipopes]

Find old 78rpm recordings (meaning, CD reissues, unless you really have the 78's and a good player) where folks like John "Chief" Kuhn played recording bass and sousaphone into the horn microphones of the day as a substitute for double bass, which was too diffuse to record in the early days of recording. Smoothness of articulation, more of a careful "dzth" to emulate the bow scratch, and careful attention to cutoff, whether legato or detached, to match the rest of the strings, is the key.

I agree with learning DB as well. I'm only barely competent pizz, and my right hand cramps too much for arco, but I play regular DB gigs with my jazz/dance band, and getting an actual feel as to how the instrument works is key to emulation on tuba.

[GC]

I got sick years ago of ignorant conductors telling tubas to play walking bass lines super-staccato "like a string bass." At least I haven't heard that much the last few years.

[kontrabass]

More difficult than many people think; it requires a pretty sharp attack, and a decay that imitates the natural string decay as has been mentioned, but also - and perhaps most important - a significant darkening and warming of the tone, so that more fundamental is present: more lower frequency content especially around 200Hz, and much less "sparkle". Most tuba players that try to imitate string bass play TOO BRIGHT.

[tubajoe]

a significant darkening and warming of the tone, so that more fundamental is present: more lower frequency content and much less "sparkle". Most tuba players that try to imitate string bass play TOO BRIGHT.

Yep, what he said. He knows.

Also, there's no reason that a tuba has to sound just like a string bass. It's a tuba, let it be a tuba. Chicks like the tuba.

[Lars Trawen]

a significant darkening and warming of the tone, so that more fundamental is present: more lower frequency content and much less "sparkle". Most tuba players that try to imitate string bass play TOO BRIGHT.

Yep, what he said. He knows.

Also, there's no reason that a tuba has to sound just like a string bass. It's a tuba, let it be a tuba. Chicks like the tuba.

If you have need for the string bass sound, use the string bass.

[kmurdick]

I heard a tuba in New Orleans that achieved the electric bass sound (which was close to a string bass). He had lowered a mike into the bell of the tuba, and then adjusted the amp to make it sound they way he wanted. He just walked that tuba and it sound ed great.

[iiipopes]

And, on the other hand, some years ago I recorded a tuba line for a novelty song that, when performed, I wasn't going to take my tuba, so I emulated a tuba tone on the bridge pickup of my bass guitar. Much easier to do than to emulate double bass on tuba.

[Rick Denney]

The attack is not as sharp as some people think when that word is used. If I use a pronounced "Toe" attack, it sounds to tight--um--you know what I mean. I use a legato "Doe" attack. But what keeps that from running together is the prounounced decay.

When a conductor says "staccato", most young tuba players might incorrectly think:
|__|__|__|

"Sharp attack with decay" means this to me (toe-toe-toe):

|\ |\ |\
| \| \| \

What I try to do (doe-doe-doe, or even tho-tho-tho, with the TH as in "though"--at least that's how I think about it):
/\ /\ /\
| \| \| \

(There are times when the bulletin board software's insistence on cleaning off white space is truly annoying.)

I can almost do it with air pulses alone, which helps get that bottomy "felt rather than heard" sound. If that's all I'm playing, I might even switch to a deep helleberg instead of my Sellmansberger, which is more Geibish and has more color.

For orchestral pizzicato, I don't try for the bottomy sound, though. Orchestral pizzicato has always seemed to me to have a more focused attack from string-bass players. Example: The covering the string-bass part in Russian Christmas Music, when there is no string-bass player. But even then I use a more "doe-doe-doe" attack.

Rick "who finds the breathing the most difficult aspect of a walking bass effect" Denney

[PaulTkachenko]

I think it helps if you play upright (string) bass. Maybe not for the sound (which can becopied) but for the lines you might play.

[GC]

If your bass has a little "mwahh" in the attack, the envelope could be described as

^-|^-|^-|^-|

[Mark E. Chachich]

Almost everyone that has posted on this thread has tried to give you some useful advice. I think that many of us are trying to say basically the same thing about attacks, decay, etc... but putting the concept into words can confuse the issue.

The bottom line is listen to bass players.

best,
Mark

[Jess Haney]

Any of the big recording basses with bell front (Conn, King, Martin, Holton) are great for creating that sound but it does take some practice. I also feel that some of the Besson composator BBbs have a very dark sound in comparison with a string bass. I saw a combo on youtube once where they used a 994 in place of a string bass and it sounded great. But an old 20j would be easier to acquire than a Besson. In college I played a 26j in the lab 3 jazz band because there was not a bass player to cover the parts.

[circusboy]

Thanks, everyone.

Yes, I think I've had the most success so far with just keeping that sound concept in my head and letting it transfer to my lips, tongue and lungs. I do think that a bigger horn would probably help with that, since I play on a 3/4-size now and am not Bob Stewart.

The idea of learning to play an actual string bass is intriguing--and a bit frightening. I have enough trouble with the tuba! I understand that one can get a decent player (Chinese--don't hate; not trying to start anything) for around $600-700, which might be doable, but how difficult is it to learn? Is it possible to self-learn? My schedule and location are such that lessons could be problematic. I worry that it'd become a big hunk of wood that would sit next to the big hunk of metal that I already struggle to find enough time and energy to play. . . . Thoughts?

[iiipopes]

If you're thinking of getting one of the eBay $600 specials, one word: don't.

Explanation: they have to be setup from scratch. You have to redo the bridge, both height, crown, thickness contour and proper renotching to lower it to bring the strings to a playable level; likewise with the nut; rebuild the tuners; have the fingerboard cambered; and new double bass strings are $100 to $300 a set for the standard offerings. And that doesn't even begin to start with the accessories, including a good peizo unit if you're going to be amplified -- add another $300 or so plus $400 to $1000 for a proper amplifier combo. And then there's getting a real tailpiece with the proper tailgut to set the afterlength, setting the sound post (CRITICAL) and we haven't even mentioned a bow and rosin, the Simandl book to get your hands into position, etc.

Now, I did purchase one, but I have the tools and 35+ years tinkering that I did want to set it up myself to learn it inside and out, literally. It took quite awhile, including some basic woodworking I had to do to fix parts that weren't fit properly.

There are several top notch boutiques that can set you up with a good plywood starter bass ready to play out of the box for @$2000 to $2500 for the package. If you're interested, PM and I'll give you some links.

As far as playability, being a bass guitar player helped, but after only a day it became obvious that, just like the UK and the USA are two great countries separated by a common language, double bass and electric bass are two great instruments separated by a common tuning.

[kontrabass]

To the poster that said, "if you want to sound like a string bass, use a string bass", you're completely missing the point, the whole idea of having control over timbre/articulation/decay/placement in the groove/etc. etc. etc. is to give yourself greater flexibility and therefore greater range of expression.

Imagine you're in a dixieland band and playing everything short and bright and in 2 - standard and acceptable - and then your trombone player launches into a swinging bebop style solo. If you can switch to a walking four feel and emulate the string bass then you've given him a completely new sandbox to play in plus added major interest and contrast to the arrangement of the tune. Now you're not just a dixieland player, you're actually playing creatively and responding to your fellow musicians AND you've given the band greater depth. It's all about having more tools.

The belief that "my instrument sounds / should sound like XYZ, and that's it" is limiting. Guitar players are always twisting knobs and stomping on pedals to alter their timbre as it suits each unique situation; we can alter our timbre "naturally" by making slight adjustments to how we play, and why shouldn't we?

[circusboy]

To iiipopes: McCabe's, a venerated old guitar shop here, sells a string bass from China that they really stand behind (no pun intended). They told me they looked for years for an inexpensive one that they felt had decent quality with minimal setup/reconfiguration (which they do in-house). Last I checked (a year or so ago), they were asking either $600 or $700 for it. I'd trust them on this before dropping $2k.

To kontrabass: Thanks for articulating some of my own thoughts.