how useful is a recording bell?

[tubajazzo]

Hi everyone,
what do you think? I am talking about jazz playing in small or medium venues, or outdoor playing, with the tuba as the bass player incl. some soloing.
Would it be better to have a recording bell instead of putting a microphone on the tuba an amplify the sound?
What disadvantages are there? Intonation? Soundwise?

courious about your answers.

Gerd

[Bandmaster]

Though I love the sound of my big Holton 345, there is one venue where I perform with a local community band every month and use my York-Master with the front facing bell attached. The acoustics on the stage are terrible and the stage is surrounded with thick black velvet curtains that just suck up all the low frequencies. Being that they place the tuba players on risers in the back verses on the extreme left side of the set up, if I would use my Holton I might as well be shooting blanks because it just blows into those big thick curtains. No matter how loud I played the audience would never hear me. But with the front facing bell I can be heard and can try to balance the band.

[Steve Marcus]

Would it be better to have a recording bell instead of putting a microphone on the tuba and amplify the sound?

Notice in the photo of this band that only one of the players is not miked:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Not exactly the pinnacle of my career, but for the sake of this topic...

[iiipopes]

Read my signature. I have both. I need both. And not just for outdoor concert band concerts. I have one venue I play about twice a year that is, for all practical intents and purposes, a theatre stage, playing on the stage. So it has all the rigging, lights, hoisted backdrops, etc., in the very tall space above the stage behind the proscenium arch, but no sound shell. The performance is in front of a canvas backdrop. So an upright bell would just get lost and not get off the stage. But the recording bell does great. When I purchased my tuba, knowing I was going to play a variety of concerts, gigs and performances, I specifically bought a tuba with both bells.

In short, how useful is a recording bell? Very.

[David Richoux]

I used a big old Conn 4 valve front action BBb bell front for many years - the band I was in at the time didn't like Sousaphones (lots of indoor large room gigs ) but they liked the big horn sound. After that band went away I got a Conn 4 valve sousaphone and I have used it for all sorts of gigs (indoors and out.)
I use a up bell tuba for small room gigs but I really prefer the directional projection of a bell front, sousaphone or tuba (even a helicon, if I turn sideways.)

[tubajazzo]

Thanks for your replies, friends. the reason i asked is: there is a Mira 186 with exchangeable bell, but more than 400 kilometers away from where I live. So I'm asking me if it is worth the drive to test play it. Personally I would prefer to have one tuba with two bell options rather than adding a sousaphone or helicon.
And I also wondered why there are no recording bells in production anymore. This fact indeed seems to say that there is not so much demand. On the other side, newer constructions like the "Orenophone" do have a bell pointing to the audience for some reason.

thx
Gerd

[Dan Schultz]

To me... a mic on a tuba doesn't sound much different than a mic on a keyboard or a bass guitar. I use a recording bell when the venue needs it. Friday... on stage with a German band, we had no sound equipment. I used a recording bell tuba and was able to complete with the other bell-front instruments... ie trumpets and trombones. Without the bell, I would have been playing for the overhead lights.

I used a recording bell for a Memorial Service this morning. I thought about taking a sousa but the tuba was more convenient since we were playing under a tent.

Occasionally, I do use a mic on a bell-front tuba or a sousaphone. I'm just not nuts about giving control of my presence to a sound guy!

[eupher61]

Sorry, Jason...but I daresay a sousaphone IS a tuba. A variation, but it is a tuba.

That's not the point, but oh well, I'm surprised this thread has stayed on point this long.

To the OP....I much prefer my bell front for any jazz playing. Martin Mammoth. I have both bells, love the upright for orchestra and those times I'm not the only tuba in a concert band, but the sound of the forward bell (of any such tuba, but especially Martins) is, to my ears, glorious. I prefer to not use a mic when possible in any situation; unless I'm running the sound myself, I have only had 2 sound guys who ever got my channel set up properly. I do use my helicon in standing up situations, as Steve Marcus said, and turn sideways to project.

I'd speculate that the reason the recording bell has gone out of favor is practicality. They are not as well-balanced, even more cumbersome than normal, and simply too big for most high schools. Add in all the snobbish attitudes that have been going around for a number of years, concerning key/valves/valve placement and size, and the recording bell suffers greatly.

[Heavy_Metal]

This is the main reason I got my 20J. Sometimes you just have to have a horn that points forward instead of up, in order to be heard at all. There's nothing worse than watching a recording where the tubas cannot be heard, even though they're playing their hearts out. Been there, done that.

Prior to getting the 20J, I only had the Sonora, so the 20J is also my backup horn. I've taken it to rehearsal when the Sonora was being worked on, asked our director if it unbalanced the sound and he said it sounded fine. This would, however, depend on the director- some just don't like bell-fronts.

Our band only does one open-air performance each year, but that and the backup factor was enough for me to justify the purchase.

[Lee Stofer]

Personally, I would not want to be without one for outdoor, or jazz use. The bandleader I work with most has bought a microphone to put on my horn, but I tend to avoid using the mic, unless a pro sound company that know's what they're doing is involved.

In an indoor venue with really bad acoustics, the recording bell can overcome a lot and make the player sound much better. That said, I do not want to use it for everything, but it really does have it's place.

There are two reasons that manufacturers are not making production recording bell tubas these days - price and perception. In the mid' to latter 1960's, Americans to a great degree started thinking that anything British, or European, must be superior to the American counterpart, and in the tuba world, Mirafone, Alexander, Meinl-Weston and others started selling a ton of their instruments to us while American instrument makers languished. When I was an undergrad in the 1970's I was able to have full use of my college's Holton 345 6/4 CC, because no one else wanted to play on AN OLD-FASHIONED AMERICAN TUBA, and some looked down on me for playing that horn. My, the difference that a few years makes in tuba fashion! And, the recording bell tubas that had been the fashion in the 1930's - early 1960's cost more to make, so manufacturers dumped them when people were no longer willing to pay the price for them. The fact of the matter is that recording bells tend to be very responsive, and make for a more-efficient instrument than an upright-bell instrument, but that does not matter where college-, and orchestra fashion is concerned. So, perception and price govern what is available.

I should also comment on the sousaphone/tuba issue. A valve trombone is not a re-wrappred baritone, etc. A valve trombone has trombone tapers and bore, and happens to have a valveset instead of a handslide. Some manufacturers provide them with both options. But, a sousaphone, recording bass, helicon, and concert tuba, from a French tuba en Ut to a British compensating EEb to a German/Czech rotary concert tuba to an American BAT, all are tubas. And, if all this about open-wrap being so much better (ask a trombonist about his F-attachment), then sousaphones should be the superior tuba, as long as they are silver-plated/lacquered, 3/4 valves, with front/upright bell . . . . ;^)

Yes, a recording bell is quite useful, if you have use for it. If not, forget it.

[cornholio]

I am Cornholio!

[The Big Ben]

I'd speculate that the reason the recording bell has gone out of favor is practicality. They are not as well-balanced, even more cumbersome than normal, and simply too big for most high schools.

I had a King 2340 with recording bell. It sounded great but it was cumbersome at times. My King must have been a refugee from a school. It appeared that the horn had been laid down on its back because the entire back side of the bows were flattened in about 1/2". When a sousaphone is split into body and bell, they can be stored together easily. If I carried the King in my car, it was best to take the bell off the body and put it in separately and I was frequently stuck holding the bell and thinking, "What to do with this part?"

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I've become a big fan of recording bells. I have a detachable bell old King that has made quite a bit of money, and conductors in musical pit situations are growing quite fond of them. I'd love to find an upright bell for mine, but it's the only horn I need right now, which is good, because its the only horn I own. Of course the 8 grand I got when I sold my 4p 1r CC will come in handy soon when I search for a backup King, I guess I'll try to find one with both bells just for kicks
For the kind of playing I like, jazz, blues, funk, and of course playing musicals for a living, the bell front really works and sounds right.

[pjv]

The nice thing about a recording bell is that you can turn it any which way to get the best out of the room acoustics (remember how unhappy Jake was about the ceiling in Orchestra Hall.) It's an advantage that's not restricted to outdoor concerts or acoustic "jazz gigs".

On the left my bells pointing up. It was the best place for my sound in that room.
In the middle it's going backwards. I did this during a recording so I could see my colleagues and help avoid any extra tuba sounds in their mic's.
On the right the bell is 2/3's forward and 1/3 up. Again, the best sound for that room.

Even if I'm mic'ed, I still have the advantage of pointing the bell were I most need it (and/or the group!). Sometimes an acoustic sound with an amplified "lift" is what's best. The recording bell can help.

Having an extra upright bell can be interesting, assuming it's a good bell. But it's not a must. As you can see in the middle pic I hold my tuba, like many players, at about an 80% angle. When my bell's turned up (like on the left pic) the bell itself is also pointing up at about 80% to the right. Bingo; an upright bell!

Another advantage is that I have a lot more options as to where I position myself within the group. With my upright tuba's I often need to sit in one place where the group can hear me. This isn't always the best place for the quality of my sound, seeing the other players, or for the audience to see me.

Good luck.

[Jack Denniston]

Back in the 70's I was playing a Bell Model MW with a detachable bell. I didn't have the recording bell, so when I needed one, I used my sousaphone bell (I think it was a Conn). It didn't fit snugly, so I secured it by wedging in some pieces of wooden clothes pins. It worked better than my upright bell for our outdoor municipal band concerts (totally open air- no roof or sound shell).

These days I'm playing an old King 2341 with detachable bell. When I need a recording bell for an outdoor gig with no sound shell or amplification, or a gig on a stage with a low curtained ceiling (it hasn't happened yet), I'll use the bell from my King sousaphone- it fits perfectly.

[tubajazzo]

thank you all for your answers!

Gerd

[Uncle Markie]

It was a condition of my employment with Paul Lavalle's Band of America that I had a bell front tuba. I used a King 1241 on that job. In the Ringling Band I used my Martin with the bell front. I now have an upright bell for the Martin (Stofer) that works great. I also use a King 2341 - the new upright model - for a lot of work - outdoors and in. Nightclubs in NYC with low ceilings (that includes a lot of the old jazz haunts) were better with the bell front as you didn't have to "play the ceiling" - some were bad enough that it felt like a bucket mute all night. The old Gaslight Club comes to mind - I used a bell front on that gig.

Fortunately the outdoor band shells I happen to work in during the summer have good acoustics so the upright bell works fine. The Martin projects in just about any environment with either bell.

Sousaphones have an ongoing problem with distortion of sound. The nodes of the vibrations do not curve around the back of that bell - they "bang" on the back and go out the front. Plus the "bits" - especially the Conn style - of jagged stuck together tubing right where the mouthpipe should be smooth contribute to the "rasp". Sequential bits that meet in a smooth inside bore solve this problem - Martin did this with an "S" shaped pipe, Bundy of all companies, and back in the 1970s King made up a set of sequential sousaphone bits that worked very well. Once that problem is dealt with sousaphones can work pretty well in a concert situation.

I don't think the bell front is going to make a comeback as a production horn; however there are plenty of serviceable bell front tubas around to buy these days. In many situations I have always felt it easier to "push the time" with a bell front tuba when surrounded by other bass instrumentalists who were a little too in love with the sound of their "tone" and hung onto notes too long - and they know who they are...

Mark Heter

[bort]

The Marzan I used to own had a recording bell. I didn't use it a single time. The original owner used it once at a New Sousa Band rehearsal, thinking it could be a good idea. He was asked to not use the recording bell again, and so it sat, unused for many many years.

The current (and final) owner of that Marzan has, and uses, the recording bell, and likes it a lot.

[Bob Kolada]

Recording bells rock; they're all business. I think all the ones I've played were fixed bell; I did play a removable bell Conn Constellation baritone that was pretty lousy. We got a new recording bell Yamaha baritone in high school. I liked it, and my clarinet playing band director, John Gorball (anyone know him?)- sounded like a million billion bucks when he played it.

I've been scouting for a King 2266 to try out as a jazz horn/solo horn/trombone sub for quintet and trombone trios for a while now. Anyone in Chicago got one?

[MartyNeilan]

I played outdoors today and wished I had a recording bell - more sound would have gone forward and less sound upward, where only the birds would approve.

P.S. They still make bell front tubas. They're called "marching tubas"