Profound Eb haters

[thattubaguy]

Play it in tune and in the proper style for the music. If they don't like it, tell them to go suck eggs.

+1

Thomas

[DaTweeka]

As for Master Bob's comment about an Eb only being pretty and not having a rich variation in sound, I offer the example of Oystein Baadsvik. If his playing is just "pretty", then playing pretty is good enough for me. With all due respect Master Bobo, I disagree with your opinion.

In a later article titled "Starting on Eb!!" Mr. Bobo cites Mr. Baadsvik as a notable exception, along with Patrick Sheridan. He also goes on to say that it has to do with the design of their horns; the front action rotary models they play on are more responsive, more capable horns than those made in the top-facing, compensating piston models. Mr. Bobo also states that it's more about how the timbre of the horn changes and how the overtones shift as dynamics change, which also has to do with the design of the horns. And as a euphonium player, I can kinda see where he's coming from; you can bend the tonality of the horn all you want, but there's always a return to center, and there's always limit to your capabilities based on where your horn centers tonally. So, Eb's aren't always evil, but the British design is flawed and a hair limiting.

[opus37]

He also goes on to say that it has to do with the design of their horns; the front action rotary models they play on are more responsive, more capable horns than those made in the top-facing, compensating piston models. Mr. Bobo also states that it's more about how the timbre of the horn changes and how the overtones shift as dynamics change, which also has to do with the design of the horns.

While playing a concert in my church, Oystein play tested all my horns. My Martin and Kanstul are both top action non-compensation piston horns. He and all who heard the test found the sound produced by those two horns to be full, dark and full of life. Oystein really liked the sound of the Martin, but noted it's limitation because it has 3 valves. The Kanstul was decidedly more manageable. The mouthpiece used on a particular horn made a difference in tone of the horn. From this experience, I disagree with Mr. Bobo's comment about the design of the horn. Mr. Baadsvik went on to describe the Miraphone design and their attention to detail that make those horns easier to play more in tune over the range of the horn.

[Karituba]

I have been playing my Conn 16J Eb recording bell tuba for a year in a couple community bands. I usually sit directly behind the trumpet section. On many occasions, the trumpet players of a certain age, have commented how they like the big sound of the Eb tuba. However, the directors of the community bands usually have a different opinion. I honestly play my Eb tuba in my community band when we perform outside(it's 70 years old and most of the lacquer is gone) over my PT-3s.

[J.c. Sherman]

One of the reasons the conductor does not like Eb is they are squirrelly on intonation. My self I have been working a lot with a tuner and alternative fingering. The section leader says the Eb doesn't have the warm sound (he says to open up my throat more but it's an Eb so it is going to sound different). The band has access to BBb so the aforementioned people would prefer BBb. The band is really a great bunch folk. If I ONLY could play Effer they would be fine with it. So in rereading the original post I should have asked why do people NOT like Eb tuba.

1. That's what you asked in your OP. I still wonder why you think, based on just your anecdotal experience, that most or even many people don't like Eb tuba. I'll postulate that most don't care.

2. Saying Eb tubas have funky intonation is another over-generalization.

3. Your section leader needs to listen to more Baadsvik if he thinks the key of the tuba is what determines a "warm sound."

4. I'm still amazed that a community band would even consider telling a new player what type of instrument they would "prefer" he played. Doesn't sound like a great bunch of folk to me. It sounds more like a bunch of people who spend way too much time worrying about things that, frankly, don't matter.

+1, x John Fletcher

[Lectron]

1. That's what you asked in your OP. I still wonder why you think, based on just your anecdotal experience, that most or even many people don't like Eb tuba. I'll postulate that most don't care.

2. Saying Eb tubas have funky intonation is another over-generalization.

3. Your section leader needs to listen to more Baadsvik if he thinks the key of the tuba is what determines a "warm sound."

4. I'm still amazed that a community band would even consider telling a new player what type of instrument they would "prefer" he played. Doesn't sound like a great bunch of folk to me. It sounds more like a bunch of people who spend way too much time worrying about things that, frankly, don't matter.

+1, x John Fletcher

I often prefer a nimble CC in wind bands as the do it all in front of a largish Eb, but man.....A lot of rubbish in this thread

Take the two above quotes to your section leader

Sometimes playing the BBb I get asked if I play the CC and I get the same question when playing the Eb

[J.c. Sherman]

As for Master Bob's comment about an Eb only being pretty and not having a rich variation in sound, I offer the example of Oystein Baadsvik. If his playing is just "pretty", then playing pretty is good enough for me. With all due respect Master Bobo, I disagree with your opinion.

In a later article titled "Starting on Eb!!" Mr. Bobo cites Mr. Baadsvik as a notable exception, along with Patrick Sheridan. He also goes on to say that it has to do with the design of their horns; the front action rotary models they play on are more responsive, more capable horns than those made in the top-facing, compensating piston models. Mr. Bobo also states that it's more about how the timbre of the horn changes and how the overtones shift as dynamics change, which also has to do with the design of the horns. And as a euphonium player, I can kinda see where he's coming from; you can bend the tonality of the horn all you want, but there's always a return to center, and there's always limit to your capabilities based on where your horn centers tonally. So, Eb's aren't always evil, but the British design is flawed and a hair limiting.

This wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with Mr. Bobo. I admire him, but I disagree with him a lot. If you want bite, play contrabass trombone. If you're a tubist, you have a tuba timbre... let the bass bone do the biting for you. In this, Eb (British style) instruments are positively sexy.

[bort]

Sidebar -- in my summer group, I played my small Cerveny F, since there were about 6 tuba players in the section. I thought it sounded great, and the rest of the section thought it was cool too. If nothing else, it helps clear up the mud in the basement when its a big section. The conductor knew I was using an F tuba and was fine with the idea, but even if not, I would have still brought it.

The only downfall was the concert where I was the only tuba player who showed up, that was not the most fun I've ever had.

[Jay Bertolet]

I have a number of Eb tubas. The three that are modern, working tubas, as in they generate income, are as in-tune as any tuba gets.

They are "point and shoot." Easy pitch, easy response, great sound.

Squirrely in any way, they are not.

Troll thread...

+1

Before I had my Nirschl York CC, I often brought my Willson Eb in for certain works. Frequently, I got comments from those around me that I should bring that horn in more often, that they really liked the quality of the sound. I used to chalk that up to the Rudy CC's propensity to sound ugly up close but great out in the hall. Still, if you know how to operate them and have the right combination of mouthpiece and tuba, just about any Eb will do well.

Honestly, the only real "hatred" I ever see for Eb tuba is from uninformed tuba players that have a snobbery bias for F tuba and still view the Eb as a school instrument. Ah, to be back in the 1950s just as others (even prominent folk in our field) seem to be...

[J.c. Sherman]

Sidebar -- in my summer group, I played my small Cerveny F, since there were about 6 tuba players in the section. I thought it sounded great, and the rest of the section thought it was cool too. If nothing else, it helps clear up the mud in the basement when its a big section. The conductor knew I was using an F tuba and was fine with the idea, but even if not, I would have still brought it.

The only downfall was the concert where I was the only tuba player who showed up, that was not the most fun I've ever had.

I showed up to a community band concert once where I was asked to help with Holst's First Suite on the (real) baritone part. I showed up with it, and he asked "where's your tuba?" He had thought it "obvious" that he wanted me to play tuba for the entire concert except the Holst. The only tuba I had with me, but pure happenstance, was my microscopic King Eb 3 valve recording. Great horn for strolling with a banjo... but damn near useless under a band! I feel your pain!

J.c. (who, from time to time, did support his college band on his own with his Imperial Eb, and never received a complaint).

[modelerdc]

dislike of the E flat tuba is different in band than in orchestra. In Orchestras, at least in the US the E flat is considered an alternative to the F tuba, not really a replacement for the CC. This makes sense as there a lot of F tubas with problems of intonation and response, and there are a lot of decent E flat tubas. Given better choices of F tubas, and the trend toward homogenity in orchestra auditions, Many young players will just play F and CC.
In band it's totally different. In band in the US the F tuba is almost totally absent, not a factor. So the choice is between E Flat and BB flat. I picked up the Smithsonian book on the history of Brass bands in the US, and from this source it appears that the smaller bands of the 19th century used mostly E flat tuba. Sousa and others pushed for the symphonic band to replace the smaller brass band. In addition to a full section of woodwinds, Sousa advocated using only the BB flat tuba. This became the US music education orthodoxy, although it's taken many decades for all school bands to get rid of their last E flats. When I was in school, about 1970, there was one Sousaphone player I thought sounded better than the others, clearer, good projection. I was surprised to learn he was playing an E flat sousa! When I was in college taking brass class, they had a tuba but the instructor said that they weren't using it as something was wrong, it didn't play right. I picked it up and started playing it. I told the instructor that it played fine, but it was an E flat tuba. We still didn't use it in class as E flats were considered obsolete. By now few schools buy new E flats, and the old ones are mostly discarded, the better ones eagerly sought out by adult players who love E flat.
When Sousa spoke out against the E flat it made sense for several reasons. A hundred years ago small three valve E flats were the norm, 4 valves were rare, and 5 valves and compensators were unkown. It's easier to teach an all BB flat section and easier to write for. And probably most important the sonic mass required of tubas in a large symphonic band is just easier on a large BB flat. This last factor is responsible for some of the best E flats made, the Giant or Monster E flats made to have a tone as big as a B flat, no accident they were developed back when many bands still used E flats but BB flat was the trend. As an aside don't forget the Sousaphone was developed for Sousa's concert band! not for marching!!!

[Steve Sykes UK]

well, speaking personally, I absolutely love the EEb tuba!!!

[Lectron]

^^ No kidding

[chronolith]

What people seem to forget is that the differences between the models and makes of tubas is always WAY MORE significant than the key it is pitched in. A close second to that, but also much more significant is the player and their ability to sculpt and appropriate sound out of the instrument. These are debatably reversible.

Anybody who condemns an instrument choice based on the key of the instrument is misinformed or lacking in positive examples to the contrary. I am certain that preconceptions play their part as well.

[ken k]

what kind of Eb tuba do you have? a old small Eb from the early 20th century could be the reason for their dislike. Generally those horns were not very good and had significant intonation issues (as many horns from that era had, Eb and BBb alike).

Also (and please don't take this as an insult) if you are primarily a cornet player, your tonal concept could be partly to blame for the tone not being dark, etc...

ken k

[Chadtuba]

The only horn I own is my 983 Eb and that's what I take with me whenever, and wherever, I play. I can play everything that is needed on this horn, but all are best served when I can play with another player on a contra bass where we can compliment each other.

[eupher61]

I just can't get used to the idea of 2nd valve for D...

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I just can't get used to the idea of 2nd valve for D...

Worse than that....when I started to play Eb, I could not believe that B natural was supposed to be played 2+3! (Db, played first valve, was a head scratcher for me, too....)

[Wyvern]

Any British tuba player will be incredulous at anyone hating the Eb. At least in its compensated 3+1 form as we use in the UK it is the ultimate "do-it-all" tuba - in orchestra equally suitable for playing Shostakovich, or Berlioz and by far the most popular tuba used in all sorts of bands and ensembles.

This weekend my band will be recording CD with bass section of three EEb tubas and a string bass.

[Bandmaster]

For me its not about the pitch of the tuba, but the size of the tuba. In one community band I play in we have a complete mix of horns. Me on my BBb Holton 345, player #2 on a small Yamaha F, player #3 on a small Yamaha Eb, part time player #4 on a Kanstul EEb, and the assistant conductor playing a Jinbao BBb 191 clone. Plus all of us own more than one horn. So sometimes I have my BBb York-Master, #2 plays his big Yamaha FF, #3 his big Jinbao EEb and #4 his large 5/4 Kanstul CC. The director also plays tuba from time to time on either her Besson 983 EEb or her Yamaha CC. For me personally, I like our sound best when everyone is playing on their large horns. For me the small F and Eb just don't blend in as nicely and a little thin sounding. But both players travel a long distance to rehearsals and sometimes need to transport the small horn so I guess I can't complain too much. They are all good players! The biggest issue is making sure we all listen carefully because all these horns have different intonation tendencies.