Profound Eb haters

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I just can't get used to the idea of 2nd valve for D...

Worse than that....when I started to play Eb, I could not believe that B natural was supposed to be played 2+3! (Db, played first valve, was a head scratcher for me, too....)

[Wyvern]

Any British tuba player will be incredulous at anyone hating the Eb. At least in its compensated 3+1 form as we use in the UK it is the ultimate "do-it-all" tuba - in orchestra equally suitable for playing Shostakovich, or Berlioz and by far the most popular tuba used in all sorts of bands and ensembles.

This weekend my band will be recording CD with bass section of three EEb tubas and a string bass.

[Bandmaster]

For me its not about the pitch of the tuba, but the size of the tuba. In one community band I play in we have a complete mix of horns. Me on my BBb Holton 345, player #2 on a small Yamaha F, player #3 on a small Yamaha Eb, part time player #4 on a Kanstul EEb, and the assistant conductor playing a Jinbao BBb 191 clone. Plus all of us own more than one horn. So sometimes I have my BBb York-Master, #2 plays his big Yamaha FF, #3 his big Jinbao EEb and #4 his large 5/4 Kanstul CC. The director also plays tuba from time to time on either her Besson 983 EEb or her Yamaha CC. For me personally, I like our sound best when everyone is playing on their large horns. For me the small F and Eb just don't blend in as nicely and a little thin sounding. But both players travel a long distance to rehearsals and sometimes need to transport the small horn so I guess I can't complain too much. They are all good players! The biggest issue is making sure we all listen carefully because all these horns have different intonation tendencies.

[imperialbari]

Playing in tune per se is needed anyway. As section being uniformly out of tune may avoid intrasectional interferences, but still will not lay out an in tune foundation for the band.

A section with smaller tubas in the blend may sound less uniform to the sections own ears, but there is a good chance the bass line may be heard with much more clarity out in the hall.

Klaus

[brassbow]

since it was requested, here I am on my Eb usaline grandrapids band instrument co tuba. I have been told it is a york clone or a holton stencil. serial # 24348
https://soundcloud.com/richard-cunningham-3/ablassen" target="_blank
Yes this is normally done on trumpet.
As to sound concept I Played sousaphone and a yamaha BBb in high school, Last year I was borrowing a conn 20 sousy. I got this little Effer for $100 and could not pass it up. When I start with a new horn I play it without any preconceptions. I then let the horn tell me how it wants to sound, then I influence the sound. As a cornet player I have the tonal concept of warm, dark and round. I focus on vibrating the air around me unlike trumpet where I am the tone to the back of the hall. The enveloping sound is what I am going for. With the Eb horns ( from Eb to alto to my Eb tuba) they tend to be a bit brighter then the Bb series.
Intonation is wonky. open Eb below the staff is like 40 cents flat. To play in tune I do the following,( and yes I practice with a tuner as a warm up everyday) starting on Eb in the staff also my thrid slide is pulled to about a major 3rd....... Eb=0.....D=2....C=12..... .........Cb/B=3...Bb=0....A=2.... Ab=1.....G=12.... F#=3.....F=23... E=13...Eb=123....D=0....C#=1....C=12....B=13.....Bb=123....... FALSETONS .... A=0 Ab=2 G=1 Any lower is still being worked on.

[imperialbari]

Didn't remember having heard Abblasen (= Retraite). Interesting. (Ablassen means to stop doing your current activity).

I accept the idea of modifying fingerings to achieve good intonation, but the fingerings you list would drive me nuts.

Klaus

[brassbow]

Didn't remember having heard Abblasen (= Retraite). Interesting. (Ablassen means to stop doing your current activity).

I accept the idea of modifying fingerings to achieve good intonation, but the fingerings you list would drive me nuts.

Klaus

at first it did but it was the only way to hog tie this lil girl. now i sometimes find that I forget myself and start doing this altered on my cornet when I get tired. That's a 4 wood nut driver. Abblasen was written by Bachs trumpeter Gotfried Rieche for upper range baroque trumpet and is ment to be played in one breath. I had to play with the phrasing to make it sound like it is a tuba piece.

[alfredr]

USA Line Grand Rapids Band Instrument is a York stencil from my research on my baritone/euphonium, about a century old.

[windshieldbug]

USA Line Grand Rapids Band Instrument is a York stencil from my research on my baritone/euphonium, about a century old.

Grand Rapids BIC was not a stencil per se, but was actually owned by York and used as a less expensive line, as with Conn and Pan American. GRBIC horns were built on the same lines by the same craftsmen, but used a different serial number series.

[ghmerrill]

I accept the idea of modifying fingerings to achieve good intonation, but the fingerings you list would drive me nuts.

at first it did but it was the only way to hog tie this lil girl.

USA Line Grand Rapids Band Instrument is a York stencil from my research on my baritone/euphonium, about a century old.

There is something else to consider that you might want to thoroughly investigate if you haven't already done so. If that horn is as old as it seems, there is more than a good chance that it isn't pitched to A=440. My 1924 Buescher exhibited some of the same distinctive intonation features as yours, and I finally determined that it appeared to be pitched to A=435 (which was one of the popular "low" pitches in the early 20th century). I determined this by carefully "mapping" the intonation and pitch of the instrument and also setting the tuner to different pitches and then trying the scales. A lot of effort also went into mouthpiece trials and I settled on the Wick 5 (the horn takes the "small European" shank -- so mouthpiece selection is limited without receiver replacement).

After all of that, I began cutting the horn down, shortening the main tuning slide and first valve slide. But the thing that makes it playable with standard fingerings is that I cut about 1.5" off the third valve slide and fashioned a 3rd valve slide kicker. This makes it possible to get the F and E-natural below the staff in tune (kicked out), and the 2+3 notes (especially the B-naturals) in tune (with the kicker all the way in). The horn is still a bit wonky, but can be straightforwardly played in tune without bizarre fingerings or excessive embouchure adjustments.

Just a thought, but you may be dealing with an overall pitch issue on the horn, rather than an intonation issue. Or putting a tuning slide kicker on it (1st or 3rd valve) might address some of the goofy pitch problems.

[Heavy_Metal]

Thanks for posting the sound file.

There's nothing about your playing in general that would encourage someone make up some sort of lame excuse (such as "we just don't like Eb tubas" etc.) to exclude you from their tuba section in a band. Your sound is plenty good. That's all I wanted to find out...

...so, as far as those community band people who are giving you a hard time, I don't get it.

+1. Nice work.

[alfredr]

Brassbow: I hadn't noticed your serial number until York-aholic mentioned it, I think mine is also a 5 digit serial number, starting with a 2 or a 3. I don't have "Lefty" in front of me right now to check. The others, ghmerrill, etc. may be onto something that it is built in low pitch. So do you modify the horn or modify your fingerings?

I don't remember for sure, but I think I dated my horn from York serial number lists. Could be wrong, I suppose.

alfredr, uncertain of anything, except death and, and, what's that other thing?

[ghmerrill]

A number of horns in that period -- and a lot of the horns from that particular maker -- were also built to be dual low/high pitch horns. This was accomplished in at least a couple of different ways (e.g., with two tuning slides, or a single slide that could be configured differently), and some manufacturers (such as Buescher) made a big deal in their marketing literature about this since different ensembles would play with quite different tunings.

If you do have an instrument that is not pitched to A=440, but you think it's pitched to 440 and try to "tweak" it or "correct" for it, your mental health will deteriorate rapidly. Also, you may get serious hand cramps from the bizarre sequences of fingerings you need to use to play perfectly normal passages -- not to mention the peculiar and frequent slide pulling you may need to introduce. Can you really make an F tuba into an Eb tuba with alternate fingerings and slide pulling? No, but if you're committed enough you might think that you have .

A big problem with the whole low/high pitch thing at that point in time (which was roughly pre-WWI through even the early-mid '30s) was that both "low" and "high" had multiple meanings. So "low" was 435. But it was also 438. And a few other things as well, depending on time and location. The same for "high". My Buescher is explicitly labeled as low pitch -- there's an "L" on the second valve case indicating this. But it turns out that this doesn't mean A=440 (which it does mean on other horns or in other circumstances). If I set my tuner to 440 and played the best scale I could, it was noticeably out of wack in several different places (well, it was actually a bit off almost everywhere, but you can convince yourself a lot of that is embouchure). If I set it to 439, 438, ..., 435, the scale started to look like a real scale. You might try that (and also 441,442, ...) with your horn and see what it looks like.

[brassbow]

Brassbow: I hadn't noticed your serial number until York-aholic mentioned it, I think mine is also a 5 digit serial number, starting with a 2 or a 3. I don't have "Lefty" in front of me right now to check. The others, ghmerrill, etc. may be onto something that it is built in low pitch. So do you modify the horn or modify your fingerings?

Tried to shorten the tuning and still had problems so had to do alternate fingering. I took it in to a repair guy and he thinks there may be a leak. I willed the horn with water and may have found the link and used superglue. Still bottom flat. Like the sound so may spend the money to have it refinished it. not sure though.As to the pitch i tried every thing from A=425 All the way to A=475. The low end is still very flat no matter what pitch the horn is in.

[Karituba]

I guess I'm lucky when my Eb plays perfectly with others... if everyone else played at A=438.

[J.c. Sherman]

Any British tuba player will be incredulous at anyone hating the Eb. At least in its compensated 3+1 form as we use in the UK it is the ultimate "do-it-all" tuba - in orchestra equally suitable for playing Shostakovich, or Berlioz and by far the most popular tuba used in all sorts of bands and ensembles.

This weekend my band will be recording CD with bass section of three EEb tubas and a string bass.

And for a few Americans (two I can think of) we share the British ideal

[imperialbari]

As for weird scales on very old Eb basses with small receivers some blame may be put on us the players using our big modern mouthpieces.

When I bought my Conn 26K, the only mouthpiece I had for it was a Bach 1G bassbone piece. Intonation was good, but I wanted more sound. My 1870 Besson 3+1P Eb came with a mouthpiece shallower than my current Yeo Signature bassbone piece.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

Yes, playing in tune to different pitches:
1) Yes, some horns may benefit from a shallower cup mouthpiece.
2) I played a baritone some years ago that was a high/low pitch horn. The individual valve slides had a ring knurled into the slide to show how far to pull it when the main slide was pulled to low pitch in order to keep the scale consistent.

So, when pulling the main slide a significant amount to bring the pitch down on these high/low pitch Eefers, how many folks are adjusting the individual valve slides as well to even out the scale?

[windshieldbug]

As for weird scales on very old Eb basses with small receivers some blame may be put on us the players using our big modern mouthpieces.

Very much so. Bores in general for older instruments were so very much smaller.

[J.c. Sherman]

As for weird scales on very old Eb basses with small receivers some blame may be put on us the players using our big modern mouthpieces.

Very much so. Bores in general for older instruments were so very much smaller.

Yeah, like those old 1920s Kings and those terrible Yorks of the same period. So retro

Where's my sarcasm font