Marching Band Innitiations

[Joe Baker]

Chris, I was in the process of writing my statement that you perpetuate hazing when you posted your statement that you never initiated anyone. So yeah, when I said 'perpetuated' I meant 'participated', and since I've now seen you deny doing so I'll drop that implication. But you most certainly ARE perpetuating it by condoning it. Besides, if you really think it's such a great thing to do, why would you be so adamant about denying it?

And no, I don't know all about you; nor do I mean to imply that you go around bullying everyone. But if you pressure -- even by accepting those who participate and rejecting those who don't -- incoming freshmen into allowing themselves to be subjected to the stuff you described, I will stand by my statement: when you subject incoming freshmen to the stuff you've described, or condone others doing so, you are a bully. If it bothers you to be thought a bully, then quit bullying.

FWIW, I've read your posts, and my opinion of you has been that you're a pretty decent kid (I can call you a kid because I have kids older than you -- not meant to be disrespectful), but you've convinced yourself that this hazing is okay, and I'm trying to help you see it from the point of view of incoming freshmen who are NOT big, strong, and loaded with robust self-confidence. A strong, confident kid like you has the ability to change this sort of thing, and I'd just like to help you see that that would be a good thing.
__________________________
Joe Baker, who wishes you nothing but good things.

[Joe Baker]

I am but a mere bugler, but I feel that this topic is long overdue for an intervening lock on the part of the moderator. Seriously, can't we all just get along?

Huh??? When you consider the number of people on this board who are members or directors of high school bands, I think this topic is EXTREMELY important. I don't think anyone is trying to be hateful; we're trying to help a bunch of mostly pretty good kids see that 'the way things have been done' can sometimes be wrong, and that it's best not to perpetuate those things.
____________________________
Joe Baker, who thinks if people worried mostly about getting along, we'd all be British subjects, and slavery would still be with us.

[jaredsan]

Tubachris certainly opened up a pandoras box with this one.

People at my high school were going to force freshman to drink the spit from their valves. Luckily, it never happened. What turned out to be a great section morale booster was one day, the tuba section put giant sharpie decals on our biceps, and then rolled up our T-shirt sleeves for practice. That's a simple, easy, painless "initiation" that everyone canm participate in. They had our number/letter in the marching drill, our graduating year, and our name inside of a diamond.

Initiations should be participated by the whole group. Initiation party poopers should feel like they aren't pooping. That's my view.

[Joe Baker]

What turned out to be a great section morale booster was one day, the tuba section put giant sharpie decals on our biceps, and then rolled up our T-shirt sleeves for practice. That's a simple, easy, painless "initiation" that everyone canm participate in. They had our number/letter in the marching drill, our graduating year, and our name inside of a diamond.

Now, THIS is the right idea. Something the WHOLE section does TOGETHER, so the newcomers feel included as peers. Rather than being demeaning, it's uplifting. That's the kind of initiation I think will accomplish something really positive.

There might even be some middle ground in all this. For example, if your section has a song or chant about how great you are, maybe the newcomers do it together for the group as an initiation. They'd be singing or chanting something positive, not embarrassing, something they've already heard the upper classmen do a bunch of times. But no solos; if necessary, get the sophomores to sing with a single incoming freshman. I think it'd be better if you could recognize completion of band camp by allowing the newcomers to sing ALONG WITH the returning members for the first time.

And I hope I haven't given the idea that I think hazing is the worst thing a person can ever do; I just think that it is 'bad'. Hundreds of things a HS student can do are worse. I think it is not only unkind, but also counterproductive. Chris, you've said you know the freshmen, and they didn't mind it. But you DON'T know who the freshmen are who might have decided not to show up for band, because by definition they wouldn't have shown up! Maybe you didn't lose any; but do you know?

I understand about traditions. I LOVE traditions. But all sorts of terrible things have been traditions at times. In some families, child abuse is a tradition. In our culture, racism has been a tradition. It's important to look critically at traditions and re-evaluate them from time to time. That's what I'm suggesting here.

As for my experiences in High School, I was part of two groups in HS, neither of which ever had any hazing or "initiation". Our band (for reasons I won't go into -- just not an interesting story) had no traditions, and we've all lost contact with each other. Another group I was a part of, the German club (a big deal in lots of TX high schools), still gets together on a regular basis -- in fact, I got an email this morning from one of my buddies in that group, suggesting we get together for a beer and some German food. Why were we still so close 26 years later? Because when someone came into the group they were welcomed. They were given two mentors (a "mom" and a "dad"), they learned the (dirty) German club song, which they then sang (if they wanted to) with the whole German club, not by themselves. Matching t-shirts, of course. We had regular get-togethers, some centered around things German, some just for fun. Someone mentioned scavenger hunts; we did those. In each case, a car had a "mom" and "dad" and their "kids".

As near as I can tell, those who have extolled the virtues of hazing are all HS students, or at most a couple of years out of HS. Those of us who have been around for 40 years or more have seen what has and hasn't worked to promote unity, both in our own experience and in that of our spouses and kids. I'm telling you, you would do your organizations a huge service by getting rid of the hazing rituals.

I'm going to make one last point, then I'll let others have the last word on this (I gotta do some other stuff today ). In many school systems, the budgeteers are just looking for an excuse to cut the band programs. A lawsuit because of hazing -- and we all know that some pretty trivial stuff can lead to successful lawsuits -- could be all it takes for your school district to cap the band program. THAT'll end a tradition in a hurry.

My best to you all. I hope you'll be courageous enough to think for yourselves rather than doing the wrong thing with the lame excuse that "it's tradition".
__________________________
Joe Baker, who has never hazed or been hazed, but whose life experience has taught him that hazing is wrong.

[Joe Baker]

Okay, but I DO get to drink the beer, right?
_____________________________
Joe Baker, who notes that those 4 guys better be some real hosses, or I'm going to be a gooey place on the sidewalk!

[ThomasDodd]

It was more a rite of passage of sorts than anything.

Jordie beat me too it.

I must say, it's sad that almost any right of passage is considered hazing today, and that lawsuits are the prefered method of preventing them.

I recently read about how we've lost our sense of humor, to the point of a lawer being sued by another for making a joke* waiting in line to enter a courthouse.

What's wrong with these people? Initiatios are something memeber who took them shre, and bonds them in the group.

Given the reactions, you guys would love some of the stuff I did in the Marine Corps then.

-Thomas "thinking society could use some rites of passage these days"

* along the lines of 50 lawers in cement overshoes being a good start.

[Matt G]

I think the TubeNet initiation should be the old cinder block trick for the boys and whatever would corrspond for the girls...

Seriously, I think the biggest argument against hazing is our legal system. Even if it may be perceived as harmless by 99.9% of the people out there, that 0.1% will ruin the fun for every one else.

Case in point:

When I started college in 1993 and started marching band a week before school started, we all went through an initiation. Relatively harmless stuff, most everyone took it well in stride. One time people were blindfolded for about ten minutes and the other was when everyone got doused with water. Some yelling at Freshmen during drills was part of the nonsense as well.

The next year, Fall 1994, we did the same thing. However, one of the big boys, either FSU or UF, got in a poop-load of trouble for their initiation. From there on out, initiation was morphed into basically a social with a pool party.

To avoid any potential penalty, our school changed everything post haste. When reflected upon, the hazing was basically useless and provided no positive benefits that couldn't be acheived through other methods.

I was negative towards the movement at first and at that age (19), but now realize that it was in the band's best interest. It would be terrible to have the band suspended due to a person getting hurt either physically or emotionally.


While no one might have been hurt by yours bands actions, that does not speak for potential risk in the future. You might not think that it bothers anybody, but you are not in everybody's head. You may not know that someone might have had a negative experience as a child that involved something similar to a "rite of initiation" that involved some heavy emotional scarring. Not everyone has the same past and some people's journey through life have been extremely difficult and emotionally taxing. At the age of 15/16 empathy is not a skill that I would expect to have in your skill set. However, understanding that a lot of the "elder" folk in here have real world experience with things like managing people and dealing with the law is something you should try to grasp. Additionally, many of these people have children your age and would not appreciate these types of things happening to/around there kids.

No one is personally attacking you, just your position. That is because your position has been found to be wrong again and again. Precedence is everything in the law. What is even more suprising is the amount of hazing issues that have been brought to the courts in the State of Florida in both High School and College situations and that your band director is either ignorant or stupid and allows you to continue in these things. Furthermore, the students should know that this carries potential risk. If you don't like having your band director around or even possibly a band program alltogether, continue on the same path. If you do, cease and desist.

I've been through a numerous amount of stuff involving hazing or been close to it. Be it Fraternal, Extra-Curricular, Athletic, and even Academic, it is all risky. If we are talking Military, I have no real objection to that, because war is exponentially and factorally worse than pretty much any military initiations can bring, but there have been cases on that to and the military has been found in the wrong. Granted that these are some very tortuous and extreme actions at times, people opt into the military knowing that they might have to carry a weapon and kill other human beings. People opt into band for much different (hopefully) reasons.

[ThomasDodd]

When are we going to hold those TubeNet initiations?

I think Chris has just passed his trial-by-fire initiation.

[Uncle Buck]

There is obviously a (blurry) line somewhere between appropriate section activities, and hazing.

However, spraying ice cream sundae toppings on freshman is NOT in the grey area. It is hazing, plain and simple. It is exactly the kind of thing in which freshman may not want to, but feel pressured to, participate.

TubaChris, I applaud you since you say you did not participate in that activity. I encourage you to take the next step and try your best to make sure it doesn't happen in the future.

[Shockwave]

I've never understood why some people take such pleasure in seeing others humiliated. Judging by the popularity of such humiliation-based TV shows like "Fear Factor" and "American Idol" it seems as though more than just a few people enjoy it.

-Eric

[Captain Sousie]

Chris, if you haven't realized from being on this discussion board (tubenet) long enough, there are people who have humongous egos and think that they have every right to tell someone they are wrong when in fact they are the last people who should be doling out advice or their opinion to others. What they seem to forget from their childhood is that in some way or another, they probably did the same thing to people and they forget what it is like to be in high school again or just plain young again because their dried up souls haven't allowed them to feel young in years. I and others understand where you were trying to take this. The ones with sticks up their butts are the same ones that yell at someone if they forget to put the city of an upcoming recital or concert and just put the initials of the university in their haste. Just ridiculously stupid things that only they have time for when they know they should be practicing instead. So don't sweat it man. These people who are up your butt about this are only looking to pick fights on tubenet like always. Its always the same people too. You will see that. Just learn to ignore them and be the better person.

Or we could be trying to help him, and others, avoid the same mistakes that we made...Nah, I guess we're all just assholes

[Captain Sousie]

Don't sweat it Chris. As I read it, the concensus is that you are a pretty good guy and I agree. It is a nice thing to not touch off explosions like this one but sometimes they need to be done. I, and many other posters so far, do not consider you a bad guy, just a bit mislead or, in some peoples estimation, young. What you described brings to mind something that was painful to some of us and is still painful to some no matter how it is meant. Try not to take these posts personally, most were not meant so. Do try to take their message into consideration as most come from experience. Finally, be proud. You have touched off one of the better tubenet riots I have seen in a long time. They are fun and educational.

Sou

[Captain Sousie]

It just keeps going, and going dosent it?

Yup, just like the Energizer Bunny .

I know that all of you can be, and are better than that

But it is so fun to be bad

Sou

[ThomasDodd]

I know that all of you can be, and are better than that

Oddly very little from Bloke, Schlep, Doc, or Wazz on this. I expected to see them go nuts (or act nuts, either way )

For once it seamed to stay on topic for 5 pages. That doesn't happen often.

Oh well, time tro eat

[Wes Krygsman]

I'll chime in with my high school marching band's initiations. I had fun with them to be honest, and don't see much negativity here(i'm now a sophomore college student).

The freshman get their houses toilet papered the night after their first game in the wee hours of the morning. When you wake up, the outside of your house is white. All of it was very easy to clean up, no wet stuff or anything. If it happens to rain, the upperclassmen either go and help all the clean up, or if it's raining b4 the TPing even happens it is delayed a few more nights.

The other thing is on the bus ride to the first game, freshmen are encouraged to stand up and sing some embarrassingly annoying pop song like Britney Spears or something from the boy bands. To be honest, I was sitting next to someone who was very nervous about this. When they got to him, he asked if I could sing with him. Then the next person asked to not sing and no one forced her. She was perfectly initiated and looked at as an equal cuz people knew that she was pulling her own weight in the band on the field, where it counted most.

I think some of these traditions can get out of hand, originally most hazings start out as fun and escalate to out of hand, or just be taken differently by different kids with different experiences. If that girl had been forced to get up and sing, I do think that she would have cried and it would have been a huge ordeal. So yes it IS a form of hazing, but the degree of hurt that it can do to someone can only be determined by that person(victim). It is not worth it to keep it going until that line, a very thin line, between fun and hurt is crossed.

[ThomasDodd]

High schoolers (no offense to you on the board) are generally still pretty immature. With immaturity comes ignorance. Ignorance plus hazing equals...well...it equals the possibility of someone getting seriously hurt.

http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/news/020405 ... azing.html

So no disipline is allowed? Broke arm fom doing push-ups? Give me a break (no pun inteneded). Next, directors won't be allow to insist on the horns being angle above level, and practice with exagerated angles. I ran laps more than once carying a tuba (concert horn) as punishment for low horn, or late attacks. After a few time, I quit making stupid mistakes.

where I had to cancel my audition as a result of a busted lip.

Sorry about you lip. I don't know what led to that, but A few unexpected things could lead there. Then again, I marche a show with a bleeding forehead. Why? I raised a sousaphone over my head when the team scored while waiting on the sideline before the show. Mouthpeice and bits fell out and the mpc rim hit me in the forehead. Who'd thunk it

[Biggs]

Atta boy, Chris...change it to all the politcailly correct lingo and it's all fine!

I will admit I did send a new engineer out one time to purchase a blcok stretcher, left-handed screwdrivers and collapsible nails...

Anybody heard the news stories about the Milton Acadamy hockey team? What clasification does that fall under???

Sure have. But its another case of not letting a few bad apples spoil the bunch. The few gentlemen I know at Milton Academy are fine young men who find the whole ordeal their school is dealing with to be an embarrassment and nuisance.