4th valve instead of open on F

[doublebuzzing]

Do any of you know why it is that my BBb tuba is pretty much in-tune on all notes except the F in the staff. You have to play it 4th valve in order to play it perfectly in tune. It seems a bit strange that one of the most out-of-tune notes is a basic open one and that all the other open notes are pretty much spot on.

[NCSUSousa]

I also ran into this with my tuba when I bought it as I was re-starting tuba a few years ago. I noticed that it was sharp as can be on the F with an open bugle, but using 4th valve (alternate fingering) fixed the tuning since 4th valve is tuned for C.

That F is the most tuning slide sensitive note in the scale for my horn.
If I tune it, I can play the rest of the open bugle notes just fine without adjusting the main slide. I've also had to pull out all of the other slides a little bit to tune the other notes.

Here's how I tune now: Tune the picky F in the staff first, then work down from low BBb to A (set slide #2), Ab (set slide #1), Gb (use 2+3 to set slide #3), and then contrabass EEb (use 1+4 to set slide #4). If I pull 4 so that it's in tune for that EEb, then the other typical 4th valve only notes work just fine. I just need to pull 4th a bit as I get into the contrabass range.

Edit - Just re-read this post and want to clarify: Now that I've adjusted my tuning method, I do NOT use the alternate fingering for F in the staff. It comes out a bit too flat for that note with that fingering now. I use regular 4V (non-compensating) fingerings on all notes, including pedal tones.

[euphoni]

The third partial (F) is a sharp partial of the brass overtone series. When you put down the fourth valve it turns your sharp third partial F into an in tune fourth partial F. The fourth partial, usually one of the most in tune of brass partials, is what your tuning note (Bb) is based off of.

Don't use alternate fingerings too much; Tuning can be better but tone quality often suffers... keep the note and your oral cavity round.

FYI, here are partial tendencies for the Bb brass instrument overtone series (intonation also depends on instrument):

Partial-Note(Tendency)

1- Bb
2- Bb
3- F (sharp)
4- Bb
5- D (flat)
6- F (sharp)
7- Ab (very flat)
8- Bb

[Untersatz]

Do any of you know why it is that my BBb tuba is pretty much in-tune on all notes except the F in the staff

If you are looking for any help or suggestions, it might help if you would at least
let us know what instrument you are talking about. I'm just sayin...........

[doublebuzzing]

Do any of you know why it is that my BBb tuba is pretty much in-tune on all notes except the F in the staff

If you are looking for any help or suggestions, it might help if you would at least
let us know what instrument you are talking about. I'm just sayin...........

Conn 4J.

[Art Hovey]

Actually, I find that a lot of BBb tubas have a flat middle (3rd partial) F.
I wish we could find a way to cross-breed them with the theoretical ones that are sharp on that note.

[sloan]

Actually, I find that a lot of BBb tubas have a flat middle (3rd partial) F.
I wish we could find a way to cross-breed them with the theoretical ones that are sharp on that note.

There are no "theoretical" tubas.

There is no particular reason why a tuba-shaped-object should have anything like
a "natural" harmonic series. The fact that *actual* tubas approach this with any success at all is entirely due to man-made engineering, tweaking, and tradeoffs.

And, mindless copying of earlier designs...

but, I agree that most of the tubas that I have played tend FLAT on the 3rd partial (and at least one is famously REALLY FLAT - but only on the F (on a BBb). Fortunately, on a 4-valve instrument, there are not one, not two, but three ways to finger that note. One it (theoretically) markedly sharper than the other two.
Pick one. (and beware the conductor who tunes the band to an F, and also tunes the bands to the tubas - most especially when half the tubas are CC and half are BBb!)

[sloan]

oh dear - did the OP ask about the F *in* the staff? That's not the 3rd partial...

[Untersatz]

oh dear - did the OP ask about the F *in* the staff? That's not the 3rd partial...

The OP only made reference to the F in the staff & made no mention about partials at all.

Do any of you know why it is that my BBb tuba is pretty much in-tune on all notes except the F in the staff.

[Untersatz]

But whoever made mention of the 3rd partial is correct IIRC

Open partials on a BBb tuba:

1st partial: BBBb (pedal)
2nd partial: BBb
3rd partial: F
4th partial: Bb
5th partial: D (in the staff)
6th partial: F (in the staff)
7th partial: Ab (in the staff & in theory, but usually played 1st valve)
8th partial: Bb (above the staff)
and so on.................................
feel free to correct me if I am wrong

[iiipopes]

The third partial (F) is a sharp partial of the brass overtone series. When you put down the fourth valve it turns your sharp third partial F into an in tune fourth partial F. The fourth partial, usually one of the most in tune of brass partials, is what your tuning note (Bb) is based off of.

Don't use alternate fingerings too much; Tuning can be better but tone quality often suffers... keep the note and your oral cavity round.

FYI, here are partial tendencies for the Bb brass instrument overtone series (intonation also depends on instrument):

Partial-Note(Tendency)

1- Bb
2- Bb
3- F (sharp)
4- Bb
5- D (flat)
6- F (sharp)
7- Ab (very flat)
8- Bb

I respectfully disagree with the conclusion regarding brass instruments. Yes, mathematically, these are the tendencies of natural partials as compared to the same pitches of an equally tempered scale using twelve semitones to the octave and the relation from semitone to semitone being 2^(n/12). But there are so many variables in brass instruments as to taper, bracing, placement of valves, throat and flare of the bell, etc., that no brass instrument completely correlates to this mathematical comparison. For example, with my recording bell, my Miraphone has the typical flat fifth partials. But with the St. Pete upright bell, only open middle line D is flat and needs the alternate 1+2 fingering, and 2nd space C with 1st valve is right on, where it, also, would be expected to be flat.

[Untersatz]

I respectfully disagree with the conclusion regarding brass instruments. Yes, mathematically, these are the tendencies of natural partials as compared to the same pitches of an equally tempered scale using twelve semitones to the octave and the relation from semitone to semitone.....

+1

Sure there are "tendencies" but if definitely would depend on the horn!
All tubas are NOT created equal.........and that goes double for their operators

FWIW neither my King 2341 nor my Chinese made 1291 clone have any 3rd partial F intonation issues at all.