I bought a tuba...I think!

[TubaNewba]

Hi Everyone,

I purchased this beauty at a yard sale. I assume it is a tuba as it seems too large for a euphonium or a baritone, but it doesn't seem big enough for a tuba. Is it a 3/4? How do I tell for sure, as research has told me that different manufacturers have different standards for sizing?

The bell is about 13 7/8" across. If any other measurements are needed, I'll take them.

As you can see, the brand is "Richmond". I've used my googler with no success. Has anyone heard of this maker, or is it a one-of-a-kind?

Thanks in advance for any help provided!

David

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[NCSUSousa]

1 Question:
What is the length of the 1st valve? That will tell you if it's a Tuba and what the tuning pitch should be. I don't know the numbers by memory, but you should be able to find a post on this board with the 1st valve lengths for Eb, F, C or BBb Tubas. (Or for Bb Baritone/Euphonium)

[TubadudeCA]

Looks like an Eb Tuba to me! If you happen to have a small shank MPC, plug it in and break out the tuner. You could even use a Bass Trombone Mpc Just to figure things out.

[TubaNewba]

Thanks for the input!

Unfortunately, I don't have a mouthpiece yet. It's Labour Day...shops are closed!

NCSUSousa - where would I measure the 1st valve? All 3 valves are the same length, unless I'm supposed to be measuring the associated tubing, down to the tuning slide?

Thanks again!

D

[TubaNewba]

Thanks Adam. Ever hear of a "Richmond"?

D

[NCSUSousa]

NCSUSousa - where would I measure the 1st valve? All 3 valves are the same length, unless I'm supposed to be measuring the associated tubing, down to the tuning slide?

You've got the answer here - the tubing length with the 1st slide all the way in. The valve casing and piston are different sizes based on mfr, bore size, and a whole list of other factors. Since the 1st valve is always a whole-tone addition to the main bugle, it tells you what pitch the main bugle is.

I agree with Adam's opinion that it's probably an Eb tuba. It would be nice to know for sure.

[TubaNewba]

The entire length of that tube, from where it exits the 1st valve to where it re-enters, is 37".

Would a "small Eb tuba" likely be a 3/4, or shouldn't I get too hung up with terminology?

D

[Donn]

Valves are numbered more or less like the fingers you use to play them. The first valve is the one the air gets to first, as you blow into the tuba; on a top valve configuration like this, it's the one nearest the bell.

[Untersatz]

1 Question:
What is the length of the 1st valve? That will tell you if it's a Tuba and what the tuning pitch should be. I don't know the numbers by memory, but you should be able to find a post on this board with the 1st valve lengths for Eb, F, C or BBb Tubas. (Or for Bb Baritone/Euphonium)

Telling someone to measure the length of the valve isn't much help to answer his questions.
It might have been nice to be a little more specific about what you meant

Yes, the length of the tubing is what NCSUSousa should have said

[TubaNewba]

I obviously measured it incorrectly. Can someone describe the start and finishing points?

Thanks!

D

[Untersatz]

I obviously measured it incorrectly. Can someone describe the start and finishing points?

Thanks!

D

The first valve is the one that the leadpipe goes into. The first valve tubing that you need to measure
comes out of the valve casing & goes down to the tuning slide crook & then back up into other side of
the first valve casing. Make sure the tuning slide is all the way in when you measure it.

[TubaNewba]

The first valve is the one that the leadpipe goes into. The first valve tubing that you need to measure
comes out of the valve casing & goes down to the tuning slide crook & then back up into other side of
the first valve casing. Make sure the tuning slide is all the way in when you measure it.

I had the concept of the "first valve" correct, but I was looking at it from the wrong side and mixed up where my fingers would be. The proper measurements are;

1st - ~23.5"
2nd - ~12"
3rd - ~36.5"

This corresponds closely to the CC from the chart on the previous page. Would the fact that those lengths were for 4-valve instruments make a difference?

D

[TubaNewba]

How did you measure these?

Did you use a ruler, seamstress tape measure, IKEA tape measure?
Did you measure along the center of the tubes, as opposed to along the outers and inner of the radius of each part?
And, yes, make sure to PUSH IN ALL SLIDES. The pictures show the slides pulled out enough to make it appear that it would be in CC. Would you take a picture of the front of the tuba?

That's either a Low Pitch Eb or a flat CC (not CC-flat). I'm leaning to a Low Pitch Eb

I used a (soft) seamstress tape, along the outside radius, slides pushed in. I'll remeasure along the centre of the tubes and take a picture of the front, and post both tomorrow. I'll also be picking up some valve oil and slide grease tomorrow, and hopefully a mouthpiece. I just don't want to spend more on the mouthpiece than I did on the tuba!

Thanks Kiltie, and everyone else! I appreciate all your patience.

D

[Donn]

Would the fact that those lengths were for 4-valve instruments make a difference?

Not a huge difference, but in fact that would tend to account for the longer 3rd valve.

That's a pretty unusual sight, as far as I know - a C tuba with top piston valves. You'll find out in due time anyway, but if you're wondering whether it's because of a fundamental error in your measurement technique, there's another measurement you can make, the "open pipe" dimension you see on the table above. This is the total length of everything but the valve tubing - starting at the mouthpiece receiver, measure across the valves and around all the progressively larger tubing until you get to the end of the bell. That isn't foolproof, but it's another clue.

Take the tuba with you if you can, when you go looking for a mouthpiece. It will probably take a normal tuba mouthpiece, but it might not.

[TubaNewba]

...there's another measurement you can make, the "open pipe" dimension you see on the table above. This is the total length of everything but the valve tubing - starting at the mouthpiece receiver, measure across the valves and around all the progressively larger tubing until you get to the end of the bell. That isn't foolproof, but it's another clue.

Take the tuba with you if you can, when you go looking for a mouthpiece. It will probably take a normal tuba mouthpiece, but it might not.

Thanks Donn. I'll take that measurement and post it tomorrow as well. The leadpipe diameter is 13mm. Am I correct that is pretty standard?

D

[Donn]

The leadpipe diameter is 13mm. Am I correct that is pretty standard?

Probably - heck if I know, really. You can't use that to shop for a tuba mouthpiece fit, though. If you have a good dial caliper that can do inside measurements an inch or two down inside the receiver, and you know how to use it, you could measure that and look up the shank dimensions that Matt Walters has posted once or twice here, and cross your fingers, but much more reliable to just try the mouthpiece and see whether it fits. If you aren't going to buy local, get a standard shank (your only choice in most cases anyway.)

If it won't go in, then you have a small Eb shank. There are a couple options in that size - Denis Wick, Doug Elliott - but that will be time and money. Or swap in a replacement receiver that takes standard shank mouthpieces, which will also be time and money but it's a one-time fix.

[TubaNewba]

Kiltie - see picture of front below. Measurements along middle of tubes are as follows;

1 - ~21.5"
2 - ~11"
3 - ~34.75"

Donn - measurement of entire tubing (open pipe) is closest to 13.5' from chart above, which would indicate Eb.

[NCSUSousa]

Valves are numbered more or less like the fingers you use to play them. The first valve is the one the air gets to first, as you blow into the tuba; on a top valve configuration like this, it's the one nearest the bell.

Valves are named/numbered by the finger used to play them for valves 1-3 (assuming the player has all 10 fingers). Not by the routing of the incoming pipe.
See: Trumpet http://thetrumpetguy.files.wordpress.co ... iagram.jpg for an example.

Also, the standard German style 5-rotary CC tuba puts the 5th valve between the leadpipe and the 1st valve, but that doesn't change the fact that the index finger plays a '1st valve' that's not even at the top of the valve set. Of course, valve button/lever placement changes which finger is used to play any additional valves (4,5 or 6).

[Donn]

measurement of entire tubing (open pipe) is closest to 13.5' from chart above, which would indicate Eb.

That sure adds up better than your valve tubing measurements - it really doesn't look like anything but an Eb tuba. So it comes back to the receiver size - it may have a normal receiver, but the small shank receivers were typically small Eb tubas. In that case, you're probably going to be out some extra money if you want to hook this thing up with a good mouthpiece. A bass trombone mouthpiece may fit, but it won't make a good tuba mouthpiece.

[bigtubby]

Looks like a BBb Amati ABB-223 from here. I own one of these and it's a great player for such a tiny horn.

http://www.amatiinstruments.com/tuba/abb_223g.php

Edit
On a second look I see one difference from the ABB-223: Mine and the one in the Hollwerth catalog have a "folded" third valve circuit. That could be an earlier model perhaps?

The bottom bow ferrules have the same sort of barrel shape, and Amati was certainly responsible for a bunch of stencil horns.

And on third look it is missing one of the loops in the main bugle so I agree on Eb ... maybe an AEB-211?
http://www.amatiinstruments.com/tuba/aeb_211.php