BRITISH BRASS BANDS

[TubaKen]

"Listen to this with an open mind..."

OK, I did. And, um...more semiquavers, played at even faster tempi. Again, amazing playing, not-so-amazing music. I'm not being snooty, I swear. I like the vibrato. I understand the treble clef tuba parts, and the history behind it. I'm just not convinced by the music. (And, admittedly, I haven't heard that much of it.)

It seems we are in two camps here: those that play in brass bands (and are rabidly enthusiastic about them), and those who don't, and therefore don't quite get it.

I also admit to being taken aback (just a wee bit) by quotes like this:

"I will take a brass band gig that is free over any orchestral gig."

Really? REALLY? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[tubalux]

OK, I did. And, um...more semiquavers, played at even faster tempi. Again, amazing playing, not-so-amazing music. I'm not being snooty, I swear. I like the vibrato. I understand the treble clef tuba parts, and the history behind it. I'm just not convinced by the music. (And, admittedly, I haven't heard that much of it.)

I'd really really encourage you to listen to some more brass bands. There are great arrangements and original pieces. Admittedly, many of the regularly written 'test' pieces have a certain style with lots of fast notes.

But I think this is gorgeous: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYg6PYo9W-Q" target="_blank" Cory playing an arrangement of the end of Mahler 2. If you listen to a a few more bands and few more pieces of repertoire and still don't like it, fair enough... I guess there's no accounting for taste!

Really? REALLY? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As someone who is a proud amateur and plays for fun not money (although I'm really good - just ask me), I agree that (amateur) brass band gigs are almost always more tuba-satisfying than amateur orchestral gigs. When playing with a good band, they're almost always more musically satisfying too!

[Wyvern]

I also admit to being taken aback (just a wee bit) by quotes like this:

"I will take a brass band gig that is free over any orchestral gig."

Really? REALLY? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It is very much a matter of everyone to their own.

I think if you are competitive in spirit and like playing as part of a team, brass bands provide a real buzz like no other playing activity - while orchestral tuba playing is more for individualists who appreciate contributing to playing great music

Neither is better than the other - they are different experiences

[euphomate]

[quote="iiipopes"]" It was because British Brass Bands grew up in the industrial era as a means of entertainment and diversion for the factory workers, and to build comraderie. Then the contesting system grew up as a means of developing esprit de corps. Everyone was taught together as a group, so all of the parts (save the bass trombone part that was played either by a regular trombone or the now-archaic Besson G bass trombone, so it was written in standard bass clef concert pitch notation) were written in the same transposed treble clef notation so all players could learn fingerings or positions the same way."

That's a fair description of how I was taught to play cornet in the brass band environment in Australia (a country that has a strong British brass band background) in the 1950s. The whole learning group from tuba to soprano cornet could be taught together as one group, all in the same (treble) clef. That is with the exception of the bass "g" trombone, but nobody wanted anything to do with those monstrosities anyway. Did a great deal to learn intonation across a wide variety of brass instruments from the earliest lessons.

But, there is another reason, that no one has mentioned it seems. It has always been the tradition in brass bands in Australia, New Zealand (and I'm sure the UK) for the band to provide the instruments, given out on loan. Players could be switched at short notice from cornet to baritone horn, tenor horn, euphonium and even tuba, if required to staff the band where shortages or oversupply existed. "Go to the band storeroom lad and get a (euphonium/baritone/tenor horn/Bb or Eb tuba) that's where we need you to play for a while". No need for anybody to learn a new clef, no expensive instrument to buy, band vacancy filled in an instant, fairly painlessly. It worked brilliantly and still does. That's how I found out I was better suited to euph and tuba rather than the cornet, and it didn't cost a cent. We were multi-skilling before the words were invented.

Any brass player who hasn't experienced the sensation of sitting in with a good, fully instrumented British style brass band in full flight hasn't yet experienced a musical orgasm. IMO of course.

[Wyvern]

It has always been the tradition in brass bands in Australia, New Zealand (and I'm sure the UK) for the band to provide the instruments, given out on loan. Players could be switched at short notice from cornet to baritone horn, tenor horn, euphonium and even tuba, if required to staff the band where shortages or oversupply existed.

That happens a lot in UK - particularly in lower section bands. There may be some talented musician in the band that can play anything from soprano cornet to bass. I played with one such individual in a local band and he went on to become Director of Music of the Royal Marines band service.

And it is usual of brass bands in UK to own a full set of instruments - some people play all their life with the local band without ever buying their own

[Dan Schultz]

.... .It has always been the tradition in brass bands in Australia, New Zealand (and I'm sure the UK) for the band to provide the instruments, given out on loan. Players could be switched at short notice from cornet to baritone horn, tenor horn, euphonium and even tuba, if required to staff the band where shortages or oversupply existed. "Go to the band storeroom lad and get a (euphonium/baritone/tenor horn/Bb or Eb tuba) that's where we need you to play for a while". No need for anybody to learn a new clef, no expensive instrument to buy, band vacancy filled in an instant, fairly painlessly. It worked brilliantly and still does. That's how I found out I was better suited to euph and tuba rather than the cornet, and it didn't cost a cent. We were multi-skilling before the words were invented....

This would do a lot of good for all of us 'long-time' tuba players who seldom see much more than two or four notes a measure!

[Rick F]

[snip]

I also admit to being taken aback (just a wee bit) by quotes like this:
"I will take a brass band gig that is free over any orchestral gig."
Really? REALLY? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Brass Bands can play classical works too (albeit different arrangements). The cornets, tenor horns, baritones, euphoniums have to play the string parts so these can be fast moving parts at times. Listen to the BBBC (Brass Band of Battle Creek) playing Shostakovich #10 - Scherzo at link below. The video starts from behind the tubas (David Zerkel and Phil Sinder).

BBBC - Shostakovich 10 - Scherzo

[Jess Haney]

"Listen to this with an open mind..."

OK, I did. And, um...more semiquavers, played at even faster tempi. Again, amazing playing, not-so-amazing music. I'm not being snooty, I swear. I like the vibrato. I understand the treble clef tuba parts, and the history behind it. I'm just not convinced by the music. (And, admittedly, I haven't heard that much of it.)

It seems we are in two camps here: those that play in brass bands (and are rabidly enthusiastic about them), and those who don't, and therefore don't quite get it.

I also admit to being taken aback (just a wee bit) by quotes like this:

"I will take a brass band gig that is free over any orchestral gig."

Really? REALLY? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The fact is, that I would rather sit with a group of musicians who are top notch and play great music where I am playing all the time that holds a great challenge. But my point Tubaken, is try it. I have played great orchestral works and yes they are fun but at the expense of counting rests and waiting for that sweet nugget of musical goodness for tuba was far and few between. If you have not tried it and not experienced it you cant say for sure that what I pose as my opinion is wrong considering the fact that I have seen many players put down their orchestral excerpts book for a brass band part.

[Jay Bertolet]

Interesting thread. I only have a couple of comments:

There is no right answer here. People like what they like. It's like debating the merits of different flavors of ice cream. What I find more interesting is the search to find what kind of music/musical playing really touches you. Many times when I play jobs with a concert band, I feel that I might have enjoyed that sort of career more than an orchestral one. But these moments are always fleeting for me and "coming home" to some big, meaty work for orchestra (that doesn't necessarily mean lots of notes for tuba, like Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra or Respighi's Pines of Rome) drives home the point that I'm doing exactly what I should be doing.

Those of you that are so passionate about brass bands, enjoy what you've found. It is rare in life to find that which really motivates you and gives you the satisfaction that you've found. Hopefully all of us can find something that gives us similar pleasure and passion.

[Jess Haney]

Interesting thread. I only have a couple of comments:

There is no right answer here. People like what they like. It's like debating the merits of different flavors of ice cream. What I find more interesting is the search to find what kind of music/musical playing really touches you. Many times when I play jobs with a concert band, I feel that I might have enjoyed that sort of career more than an orchestral one. But these moments are always fleeting for me and "coming home" to some big, meaty work for orchestra (that doesn't necessarily mean lots of notes for tuba, like Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra or Respighi's Pines of Rome) drives home the point that I'm doing exactly what I should be doing.

Those of you that are so passionate about brass bands, enjoy what you've found. It is rare in life to find that which really motivates you and gives you the satisfaction that you've found. Hopefully all of us can find something that gives us similar pleasure and passion.

I completely agree. At this point in my life/career it is more about substance for my tastes than money. This was more to what I was trying to convey but some were missing the point. I have always tried to reach out and do new endeavors with tuba in every idiom without pre-judging the merits of the style or ensemble. Brass banding just supplies me with fire in my blood.

[iiipopes]

" It was because British Brass Bands grew up in the industrial era as a means of entertainment and diversion for the factory workers, and to build comraderie. Then the contesting system grew up as a means of developing esprit de corps. Everyone was taught together as a group, so all of the parts (save the bass trombone part that was played either by a regular trombone or the now-archaic Besson G bass trombone, so it was written in standard bass clef concert pitch notation) were written in the same transposed treble clef notation so all players could learn fingerings or positions the same way.

That's a fair description of how I was taught to play cornet in the brass band environment in Australia (a country that has a strong British brass band background) in the 1950s. The whole learning group from tuba to soprano cornet could be taught together as one group, all in the same (treble) clef. That is with the exception of the bass "g" trombone, but nobody wanted anything to do with those monstrosities anyway. Did a great deal to learn intonation across a wide variety of brass instruments from the earliest lessons.

But, there is another reason, that no one has mentioned it seems. It has always been the tradition in brass bands in Australia, New Zealand (and I'm sure the UK) for the band to provide the instruments, given out on loan. Players could be switched at short notice from cornet to baritone horn, tenor horn, euphonium and even tuba, if required to staff the band where shortages or oversupply existed. "Go to the band storeroom lad and get a (euphonium/baritone/tenor horn/Bb or Eb tuba) that's where we need you to play for a while". No need for anybody to learn a new clef, no expensive instrument to buy, band vacancy filled in an instant, fairly painlessly. It worked brilliantly and still does. That's how I found out I was better suited to euph and tuba rather than the cornet, and it didn't cost a cent. We were multi-skilling before the words were invented.

Any brass player who hasn't experienced the sensation of sitting in with a good, fully instrumented British style brass band in full flight hasn't yet experienced a musical orgasm. IMO of course.

Indeed. I apologize if my post was interpreted as the only reason transposed treble clef notation was used. Yes, just like in American concert bands, the reason for treble clef American hybrid baritone parts is for those cornet/trumpet players who just don't have the embouchure, or where the band is lopsided and switches have to be made to even out the parts. That's how I came to play tuba: too many trumpets; not enough tubas/sousaphones for concert/marching; I'll be seen as well as heard!

And I definitely agree with the last statement of the above quote.

[Wyvern]

In the USA how many of the brass bands use British style compensated Eb and BBb basses (tubas)?

When I see pictures, front action tubas seem to be most common. I wonder how that affects the tone?

[Ken Herrick]

When I first came to Oz in 71 I joined Willoughby Municipal Brass Band and became hooked on brass bands. I was using my King monster and everybody loved the sound. Currently I am using a Besson Eb comper.

Some purists might not like the idea of "just brass" playing orchestra lit but, in a good group it is a ball. On average the parts are as least as challenging and interesting *** anything else you can play in. At one time or another I have played in most types of ensembles and don't feel at all demeaned by playing in a "British" brass band. Bloody good fun!!!

[GC]

A considerable number of US bands have at least some compensating instruments, and a few use only comps. Even so, there is probably a considerable majority of non-compensating tubas in all keys.

It seems that intonation variation between comp/non-comp instruments is a more important issue than the difference in tone. Britain seems to be locked into Eb/Bb only, but US brass bands have lots of players on F and CC. When paired with cornet sections that so often sound halfway between trumpets and British cornets, the tonal changes seem less important.

My personal pet peeve with this is BBb players who insist on playing Eb parts, often because they don't want to bother to learn to read treble clef (though in honesty Eb parts are often more interesting). It often muddies the sound.

[TubaKen]

"...If you have not tried it and not experienced it you cant say for sure that what I pose as my opinion is wrong..."

Agree 100 per cent. Your opinion is your opinion, and mine is mine. Neither of us is "wrong." When I said "agree to disagree" I meant that in a friendly manner. (Next time I'll add a smiley .)

Having said all that...I listened, as instructed, to the Mahler and Shostakovich transcriptions (and a few others), and...I'm still unconvinced. I guess brass bands are something you need to participate in to truly appreciate. Until I get that opportunity, I'll be happily counting rests in the back of the orchestra.

[Wyvern]

I would add that I think you really need to play with a brass band at championship level to get music that is demanding and exciting for the basses/tubas to provide a buzz.

In the lower sections the bass/tuba parts (particularly the BBb bass part) can be very boring and not as demanding as in the average community concert band.

Just my experience playing with brass bands at all levels

[NCSUSousa]

In the USA how many of the brass bands use British style compensated Eb and BBb basses (tubas)?

When I see pictures, front action tubas seem to be most common. I wonder how that affects the tone?

When my dad was in the Triangle British Brass Band (based in Raleigh, NC), I don't think a single player had a compensating Eb or BBb tuba.
They have some pics on their home page: http://www.trianglebrass.org/. I didn't see a single british style instrument in the current lineup for either their youth band or the adult ensemble.

[Dan Schultz]

In the USA how many of the brass bands use British style compensated Eb and BBb basses (tubas)?

When I see pictures, front action tubas seem to be most common. I wonder how that affects the tone?

I'm sure there are many who own their own horns. But... I only know of one personally. Fountain City Brass Band (Kansas City) is a VERY GOOD band and their claim to fame is the fact that they have a complete matched set of bass instruments. http://fcbb.net/index.html

[LCH3]

Forty years ago I played trumpet and now I play Eb bass on a Besson 982, a compensating 3+1 configuration. I learned the bass clef fingerings which was not difficult going from trumpet to Eb tuba. I generally receive bass clef tuba music in the groups I play with.

My first brass band experience was this past summer at James Gourlay's International Brass Band Camp in Wheeling, WV. It was the first time I was issued music specifically for Eb tuba and in treble clef. With the trumpet background, treble clef was no problem. We had 3 Bb tubas and 2 Eb tubas. The whole group - supported by some Pittsburgh River City Brass players - produced an awesome sound and it was an awesome experience. Many who were regulars in the brass band scene told their stories of once in a brass band it became their main activity. It was also quite an experience having James Gourlay and David Childs as your coach! The brass band camp is scheduled again in July 2014. Here's a link with some videos of the group: https://www.facebook.com/InternationalB ... WheelingWv" target="_blank" target="_blank

Thanks.

[bbocaner]

In the USA how many of the brass bands use British style compensated Eb and BBb basses (tubas)?

When I see pictures, front action tubas seem to be most common. I wonder how that affects the tone?

A few do, particularly the bands that are doing some competition internationally. It does affect the tone, as the British-style tubas do have a particular sound. But that's small compared to cornet players using shallow Bach mouthpieces and getting a bright sound, the whole band having the right sound in their head helps a lot and few USA bands really get it.

This music is the state of the art in brass playing. The new test pieces that are composed every year just get harder and harder and the standard of individual playing and ensemble in the top bands like Black Dyke, Foden's, Cory... well, it's just unreal.

With regards to reading treble clef: it is my opinion that a competent musician should be comfortable reading in any clef with any transposition. It's not that hard.