Unknown BBb kaiser contrabass

[tubalooney]

Hi everyone!
Can anyone help me identify this Kaiser BBb contrabass?
It's about thirty years old
The valve set was renewed about three years ago.
Height 113cm
Bell 50cm
Bore 21.2mm
There isn't a logo engraved on the bell and no serial numbers that I can see...
It looks like a Cerveny 601 Kaiser to me.
Any ideas gratefully received!
All the best
Phillip Casperd

[tubalooney]

Here are some more photos!

[tubalooney]

Last one

[Michael Bush]

I'm not as expert at this stuff as some here, but I agree that it looks like a Cerveny. I have had a Cerveny pass through that had linkages like that, and just looking at the current 601, the wrap and dimensions appear almost identical.

[tubalooney]

Thanks Talleyrand!
It does look really similar to a 601 doesn't it!
I'll be going to test it in Germany in a few weeks time.
Looking forward to that and it could be a marvellous stable mate for old Conn 34j BBb Grand Orchestra.
All the best Phillip

[Michael Bush]

Doesn't look anything like a cerveny to me. The linkages are wrong on the spatula end, the ferrules are wrong, never seen a 4th valve wrapped like that without the 3rd valve tubing next to it. the spatulas themselves are cerveny-ish, but not right either.


Cerveny never had a valve cap with a set screw either, or used that thumbring.

What it is? No idea, but It's not a cerveny

I noticed the odd looking ferrules and the fourth valve loop too. Those do seem out of the ordinary. The thumb ring would seem unusual if the bell had "Cerveny" engraved on it, but if it was a Cerveny-manufactured Amati it would not raise an eyebrow, so I discounted that.

[Michael Bush]

The bottom bow isn't as meaty as a 601, and cerveny never has nickel or silver topped valves.

About the only things this horn has in common with a 601 are the vertical tuning slide , and that it's a tuba

Eh. I don't agree. The overall shape, the bell, the height, the high placement of the valves, the linkages (at least on the valve end)... And of course there are the differences also that we've mentioned. (I'm not sure the vertical tuning slide even matters: lots of B&S tubas have vertical tuning slides, but agree the set screws are interesting.) So it may not be a 601, but it has quite a bit in common with it beyond being a tuba.

It will be interesting to see what the OP learns when he gets in the same room with it.

Meanwhile I'd be interested in knowing what Klaus thinks of it.

[tubalooney]

Thanks for all the input everyone!
It's possibly a bit confusing because the valve set was renovated and parts replaced....
it's certainly perplexing.
Some parts do look melton-esque and miraphone too...
all the best
Phillip

[imperialbari]

Hardly an Amati, as the ball and socket system is nickel silver rather than brass.

The offset spatulas say Cerveny as does the general impression of the front view.

The set screws hardly are Cerveny.

Could this be a Cerveny with some aftermarket modifications?

Klaus

[Michael Bush]

It's possibly a bit confusing because the valve set was renovated and parts replaced....
Phillip

Yep, that would explain a lot. Do you know anything more about that?

[TheBerlinerTuba]

Hallo Phillip,
I've seen 2 Cerveny 601s come through my shop looking very similar to this tuba. It's quite common in Germany to take an old Cerveny(and other brands), keep the bell and bows and scrap the rest(due to dezincification/worn out valves etc), except for a few crooks here and there. Usually a new valve set from Markneukirchen or somewhere near Munich, is installed along with new braces and leadpipe. It could also be that the original bore size couldnt be found so it was decided to change the slides to match the valves, rather than shoehorn everything together...
best regards,
2165

[TheBerlinerTuba]

30 years ago, cerveny didn't make a 20 inch bell, and they never used those ferrules

On the 601/401 style Bb Kaiser tubas from the 50s-60s they were often sold with a 20in bell. They've had the mandrels for over 130 years! And yes, Cerveny used nickel silver ferrules, which in this case have been replaced, or the engraved lines have been buffed away.
cheers
2165

[imperialbari]

Which may all tell this instrument being much older than 30 years. I don't doubt the bell being a Cerveny, but I dout it left the factory without an engraving.

Like I doubt the many anonymous instruments having started out anonymous. Polish likely being the reason for lost engravings

Klaus.

[tubalooney]

Hi Klaus, 2165, Talleyrand and bloke!
I think you have nailed it! Cerveny or Cerveny like bell and bows and main tubing with updated innards!
The seller says that the valves were replaced and the adjustment screws are for adjusting the roller axial play ( my german translation may not be correct) like Miraphone rotors. As far as the replacing the valve tubing goes I not sure whether that was replaced. I'll ask...
Thanks very much for your help
Kind regards
Phillip

[imperialbari]

Roller would be ball bearing.

[Ed Jones]

I had an quaintance who had a horn identical to this. It was a Roland Meinl. He said it was connected to the Rudolph Meinl firm.

[imperialbari]

I had an quaintance who had a horn identical to this. It was a Roland Meinl. He said it was connected to the Rudolph Meinl firm.

I tend to doubt that.

Roland Meinl is a big name in percussion, maybe not at the top in respect of quality.

Within brass Roland Meinl more looks like a stencil name put on imported instruments.

Klaus

[Ed Jones]

The horn that I remember clearly had Roland Meinl engraved on the bell and this mystery horn appears to be identical to that horn (as I recall it) except for the clock spring valve. It might be a stencil made for Roland Meinl by some other maker.

[tubalooney]

Great thanks everyone!
That just about wraps it up. I'll post some pictures and my impressions if and when I buy the tuba. If it's a good'un looking forward to trying out lots of Prokofiev and such like )
All the best
Phillip