Ultimate Ribbon Mic for tuba

[joh_tuba]

This is a VERY specific question that ideally would be asked of the rare person that is BOTH a professional sound engineer and has recorded enough tuba to have well formed opinions. That said, I'll take what I can get.

I've scoured the archives, googled the topic within an inch of it's life and can't find the specific nugget of wisdom I would like.

So here goes.. I want to know the ribbon mic that is most flattering to tuba. Price isn't the major concern because whatever I buy I'll use for the rest of my life. I view this as a one time purchase. I'll be using this mic in a stereo pair to record recitals, brass quintets, and competition recordings in nice sounding spaces.

I've tried to find recordings comparing various ribbons so I can get a sense of the differences but nearly all mic discussions revolve around how to mic guitar cabs or drumsets.. using those reference comparison recordings and imagining how those differences would apply to a tuba or brass in general is challenging for someone that doesn't have any real world experience with those mics.

Mics I've identified as contenders(none of these would be a bad choice, of that I'm sure.. I'd just like to buy a 'forever' mic):

Royer 121: Apparently the go to for trumpet in particular but brass in general. Grammy award winning. Used on film scores. Appears to be a bit of a 'gold standard' sort of mic that everyone knows.

AEA R84: Has a longer ribbon and flatter response into the lower frequencies which might make it more appropriate for tuba?

Cole 4038: On mic discussion boards any search for the above mics seems to lead to a comparison and often a preference for the Cole 4038. I don't know anything about what makes it special BUT listening to comparison recordings my ears often but not always perk up and smile when I listen to the same thing recorded on the Cole. Previous mic discussions on tubenet suggested the RCA 77-DX.. which is no longer made.. I suspect but don't know for sure that the Cole 4038 is a similar design.

Listening to comparison recordings.. if the Royer is 'bright and clear' the Cole is 'thick and meaty' and the R84 is a balance in between. Discussions of the R84 often comment that the added low frequencies can make things a bit muddy sounding.. but of course, a low pass filter can fix that if that's all it is, right? I wonder if the thick meaty quality of the Cole might make it a bit of a one trick pony that sounds great on a guitar cab but makes other stuff sound dull? Listening to reference recordings, when it doesn't make me smile it just sort of sounds muffled and distant. Maybe the Grammy folks know something and that brightness and clarity of the Royer allows a savvy engineer to just capture a great product as it happens and dial into the mix as they choose? Maybe I'm over thinking this or should look at a completely different mic?

Any and all suggestions, insights, experiences, etc. welcomed.

[burningchrome]

Ok, so my background; went to Berklee as a film scoring major and as one of the only tubas on campus, did a good number of recordings. Did the sound guy thing for a while in the Army.
The textbook reason people recommend ribbon mics for brass is for high SPL tolerance, but the best sound I heard from my tuba (Schilke CC prototype w/ Monette 94 at the time) was with a Neumann M149. It had so much more body and presence than ribbon mics. Later in the Army, I was very happy with the Audiotechnica 4040. I think large diaphram is the way to go. I would be seriously impressed if any acoustic group could generate anything near 130 dB SPL to start breaking mics.

Now, to address your intended purpose: "I'll be using this mic in a stereo pair." Do you plan to buy two? If you're goal is to record all kinds of music in all kinds of venues, I would recommend getting a good versitle pair like a Schoeps CMC 6 set. Personally, I always wanted an excuse to buy a Rode NT4.

Remember when listening to "comparison recordings," everything in the chain makes a difference; mic pre-amp, recording medium, play back DAC, monitors/headphones.

[joh_tuba]

You clearly have far more knowledge and experience than me and when I read your comments my head spins just a bit and I find myself envisioning many more hours reading microphone forums and spec sheets.

Yes, I plan to buy two.. and yes, I know the entire chain affects the final product. It was really enlightening to listen to various preamp comparison recordings.

I thought condensers were preferred for high SPL? My understanding is that ribbons can be damaged by extreme SPL. Either way, I have no intention of close miking anything and even the loudest tuba sounds don't come anywhere near the max SPL of most any mic so none of that is a concern to me.

A bit more about my intentions... feel free to correct my thinking.

I don't want to close mic anything.. I just want to be able to set up excellent equipment in acoustically nice spaces and capture a beautiful stereo image.

I'm currently using a pair for Rode NT1A large condensers in XY format with good results. Down the road I'll have those mics modded to this: http://www.oktavamodshop.com/product_in ... cts_id=145

When I bought the Rodes, I liked what I read about the upgrade mod, and I liked that with a large condensor they would basically ignore the back half of the room.. which is useful when recording recitals if the mics are in front of the audience.

In discussion with a local university recording engineer that does a lot of live recording of recitals in churches etc.. he has taken to using a pair of Fatheads more and more for that purpose. He says people have begun specifically requesting them and that they just plain sound better on brass. In the reading I've done on the topic and in talking with him.. I've gathered that ribbons capture more of the room space(sound more like a live performance on playback) and can smooth over some of the harsher aspects of articulation from brass instruments that people find displeasing. I've listened to some of the recordings made on the Fathead ribbons... they are good.

With those thoughts in mind, having a pair of ribbons in addition to the Rodes seems like a logical next step to me. No?

My plan is to continue using the Rodes.. perhaps a bit closer to the subject to capture a nice tight clear focused image.. and then set up the ribbons a bit further back to capture a warm spacious image. In post production I could then mix the two stereo images to pick the best aspects of both.

That's my thoughts anyhow... perhaps completely foolish. With that in mind, rather than just buying some Fatheads, I'd prefer to just buy a 'forever' pair of ribbons and call it a day.

If I'm going to be buying a pair of Neumann M149s I'll be saving for a good long time indeed. That price nearly gave me a heart attack! But again... forever mic is what I wanted advice on.. so that's what I guess you gave me! Would you prefer the Schoeps pair over a pair of M149s for the purposes I describe?

THANK YOU again for all the advice. Lots to think about. Keep it coming! And visit KC, I'll supply the beer.

[Ben]

I have had both the Royer and the Cole pointed at me, BUT @ different studios, with different engineers, so comparison is not valid. That being said, preferred the recording with the Royer. In the studio I recorded with the Royer, the engineer chose a condenser (don't remember the make) for the second time. They both sounded good, but different. Not sure if there was a better to be had.

[tubajoe]

duplicate reply, sorry!

[tubajoe]

Greetings

I'm a total ribbon mic fan, and almost always insist on them when in the studio. I've used many/most of the models you mention. Here are some examples… all are in ensemble contexts, some deep within and some more forward. Totally different styles, same horn (Vintage M186CC) all are recorded acoustically (non-affected/non-amped)

Naturally, the production has as much as an impact as anything as far as tone goes, but the clarity / feel / personality of the articulations are very mic-specific. I tend to vary how I articulate a lot and a ribbon helps capture this.

Edit - some tracks may not be available in all areas due to DRM restrictions...


Royer (as a rock bass)
http://open.spotify.com/track/4o3Gn5azhWe8f6A4uO6w2Y" target="_blank
http://open.spotify.com/track/34u716QCr7KwP1pGIpyvP3" target="_blank

Cascade Fathead (jazz horn)
http://open.spotify.com/track/3SWsdWZ1yKHpulQoI9vkt2" target="_blank

Coles (conventional brass ensemble - avant music, very dry recording)
http://tiltbrass.bandcamp.com/track/set ... ny-coleman" target="_blank

AEA (typical trad jazz setup)
http://music.redhookramblers.com/track/gowanus-drag" target="_blank

Samson (as a horn, deep within metal mix, but the sustained bass *synthy* low sounding stuff is mostly acoustic tuba)
http://open.spotify.com/track/4QNrAao1rDm5XcThnAYEOj" target="_blank

Vintage RCA (lyric solo and conventional brass ensemble)
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00FGHX ... mu_dp_trk7" target="_blank
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00FGHX ... mu_dp_trk9" target="_blank

[joh_tuba]

I just wanted to take a moment to express how thankful I am for the obviously time consuming thoughtful responses in this thread. It's pretty amazing to have a place where anyone can ask such an esoteric question and get real world experienced answers within a few hours.

I foolishly hoped five experts in a row would pop on and give the exact same clear cut answer.. but knew that was impossible.

Seems like a lot of it comes down to subtle differences in taste and differences in the rest of the 'chain'.

I'm not going to pull a trigger on any purchase for a while.. definitely in the data collecting stage.. but for the moment my gut is pointing towards the AEA R84 as the sensible choice.

Please keep it coming..

All the best!