EUPHONIUM IN BRASS QUINTET

[eeflattuba]

I recently came across an old canadian brass recording of them playing bach's toccata and fugue in d minor.In that recording gene watts is playing euphonium and sounds AMAZING.I also noticed that in their recording of the goldberg variations gene watts plays nothing but euphonium. I am also aware that the original ewald#1 is written for euphonium and often played that way today. As a former euphonium player many years ago i was often discouraged from playing in a brass quintet. As euphonium was my only instrument at the time i felt left out musically speaking.Today i am playing ee flat tuba in a very good brass quintet and having the time of my life. I guess my question is why is the euphonium not used more in the brass quintet?

[tbn.al]

The trombone evolved as the primary tenor instrument for whatever reason and there are not that many trombone players who are also competent on Euphonium. The reverse is also true, maybe even a bit truer. Finding a player who is equally competent on both is nearly an impossibility. Sad, because there are definite advantages to using both when they are called for.

[EdFirth]

Except mabye Jay Friedman,Glenn Dotson and Mulkehy(sp).

[mceuph]

Due to schedule conflicts with our horn teacher, I've been the "horn" player in our faculty brass quintet at UAB for the past 3 years and love it. (aside from the transposition). I know that Jimmie Self used to do the same thing at Eastern Tennessee before he retired. At the risk of offending horn players, I think it's a fantastic sonority, though there are a few instances where I would like to have the brightness and punch of the horn. However, there really hasn't been a single instance where we felt that missing the horn sound was a detriment to the group. We're actually performing at a composer's concert next week, all submissions had to be scored specifically for 2 trumpets, euphonium, trombone, tuba. Not to mention that it's been a great benefit for my chops and articulation, considering the range. For me, it's a completely different chamber experience than the standard tuba quartet. Also, as a euphonium player, it's led to a ton of regular paying gigs that I'm sure I would otherwise have missed out on, including two free European tours. I really hope that euph as a substitute for horn becomes a more regular occurrence. I think it's a great potential tool for developing euphonium students.

[tbn.al]

The trombone evolved as the primary tenor instrument for whatever reason and there are not that many trombone players who are also competent on Euphonium. The reverse is also true, maybe even a bit truer. Finding a player who is equally competent on both is nearly an impossibility. Sad, because there are definite advantages to using both when they are called for.

Guess I should have said "amateur player". Somehow I thought that was the intent of the OP. Lot's of pro's can do it, maybe even dozen's. How many amatuers do you know that can effortlessly switch back and forth between a slide and a valve instrument? Now subbing for the horn is a totally different situation. I might have to take some of those horn licks down the octave though.

[mceuph]

I might have to take some of those horn licks down the octave though.

It's actually not as bad as you might think. I would say only about 10-15% of the parts I come across need to be taken down an octave. If you have a solid 2 octave Bb scale you can pretty much play the bulk of it. There is the occasional high C, but it's rare that it goes above that. Most of the parts hover around C/D above the staff. There are exceptions. When we did the Jack Gale West Side Story arrangement it was probably more like 40% down an octave. The trick is to have a trumpet player friend who owes you a favor and is good with Finale...

[tbn.al]

Funny, the Gale is exactly the piece I had in mind when I wrote that response. Our horn player, a very good player, bitches incessantly when we insist on playing it. I can't imagine it on Euph without some common sense concessions.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I have always felt that a euphonium substiution for trombone throws off the tonal balance of the group.

Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of a euphonium, but a brass quintet is somewhat limited in its tonal palatte, when compared to a string quartet, for example.

When you have the sound of three cylindrical instruments (2 trumpet & trombone) verses two conical sounding instruments (horn & tuba), the sides are fairly even (given the extra density of a tuba sound). IF you substitute a euphonuim for the trombone, the trumpets are fairly well out numbered, and it reduces the sonic possibilities of the group.

Granted, in some situations, the euphonium sound works very well in the music, but many times the trombone sound is what is preferred, to make the music sound right.

[Bob Kolada]

I would prefer euph on the fifth part, if at all. Granted, I've only played with a euph on 4 with me on small Eb and bass trombone on the fifth part. THAT's a funny sound.

An English or marching baritone would be interesting though!

[Untersatz]

While I completely agree that a competent euphonium player could cover the horn part
in a brass quintet, the OP was asking why the euphonium isn't used more instead of the
trombone (Gene Watts) in brass quintets. I might be the exception here as far as amateur
players go. I started on trombone in 5th grade & then when straight to tuba in 7th grade,
as there wasn't any tuba players between me & the two juniors in the only hs in my town,
so after they graduated.........I was it! Other than playing bass trombone in hs jazz band,
I've never looked back & have played tuba ever since, but I can play tuba, euphonium &
trombone fairly well (even tho I haven't played trombone in over 30 years)

[burningchrome]

The Army is short on trombone players right now, so it's common to find euphoniums in our BQs. I like the sound myself. Our guys also throws in ornaments in the baroque repertoire which trombones can't really do. I had the thought of getting the trumpets on cornets and having an all conical quintet.

[PMeuph]

I have liked playing euph in quintets, but I must say that it hasn't happened that often. Most of the time, I have played euph on the 5th part, although I did cover 4th a couple times. (I played french horn parts for a concert on euph so I could see it working there too)

Having heard lots of quintet music in my life, I feel that when a euph plays the 5th part in a quintet the sonority is just not rich enough. It lacks that "organ-like" sound that quintets can often generate. I feel the same is also true of most bass trombonists in quintets. That being said, I would definitively play euph on 5th part if I had too.

As for euph on 4th part, it works great in situations where groups use cornets and alto horns, but those don't happen often. I like euph as it blends well with the tuba, and those two instruments often collaborate together musically (Doubling, unison, similar rhythms, etc) but that's just my opinion.

Finally, as to why there is not much euph in BQ, I feel it mostly has to do with opportunity and tradition. One, many colleges often have more than enough tuba and trombone players, so euphs aren't need as much. Second, orchestras have the 5 musicians on hand, so there is again no need for a euph player there. In my experience, army bands (at least here in Canada) have more trombone players available than euphonium players, so again they don't use euph in quintet regularly.

Lastly, amateur groups are more likely to follow the repertoire that already exists so they'll seek a trombone to cover the parts as that's what most people are use to hearing and they might not want to compromise in case the trombone has a gliss.

_______
That said, Boston brass' Lance LaDuke does use Euph on occaison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVb-CjwN00Q" target="_blank
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZGzAWM2I2w" target="_blank" target="_blank

[elihellsten]

I really prefer trombone over euph in a typical brass quintet. However, having played in several brass bands I have had the opportunity to play with brass band instruments instead. E flat bass, euphonium, tenor horn and two cornets. Lovely sound! A very different timber.

[PMeuph]

Don't Speak by No Doubt--Euph instead of horn

I find that actually works pretty well. Good job!

__
Sidenote: That song is almost 20 years old now.....

[tbn.al]

You got some high chops, yes you do!

[tbn.al]

Regularly-playing in a brass quintet with a "great" or "good" trombonist (who selectively "doubles" on euphonium) can prove to be a bit annoying (quirky lack-of-complete-familiarity-with-the-instrument intonation / "mushiness" - i.e. "over-mellow-ness" - of the overall sonic texture)...

...and - if anyone I've worked with is reading this - I am *not* referring to specific personalities or specific episodes. Rather, I'm referring to general experiences over decades.

+1
I never thought about the horn substitute before, but I like it better than subbing for the trombone. There are a few pieces that I think Euph might be an improvement over trombone but rarely indeed. I guess I am just a traditionalist at heart. For whatever that is worth.

[MTFULRUTUBA]

Apparently, euphonium (ophicleide) was used pre-tuba, 1850-1852. You should check out the Jean Francois Victor Bellon Brass Quintets. 12 in total (I believe) that originally specified ophicleide though marked for tuba in the new editions by BIM. The tuba part gets to A-Flat above the staff and stays relatively high in the 2nd quintet. The Ewald Quintet recorded #1-#4 using a tuba and they are really nice works. Hope they get around to recording the next 8!

[burningchrome]

We had a trombone player sit in with us today. I miss the euphonium.

[trnewcomb]

Hi, all...
Here are a few examples of euphonium instead of horn...I did these live a while back.

Wow, great job! High chops indeed. I tried playing horn parts on trombone once and it was not a success - I didn't (and probably still don't) have the on-the-spot transposing skills.

[trnewcomb]

I'm not fond of much of the "serious euphonium literature" so I decided to position myself in a different musical niche. That required a skill set a bit different from the norm, which--as it turned out--fit me better personally.
I do play some "serious euphonium literature" but prefer the pop/jazz/swing/.

As do I. I don't play serious euphonium literature at all - instead I mainly play in trad jazz and big band swing groups. Mostly trombone/bas trombone, but I also do a fair amount of tuba and even some cornet. I use the Reynolds tromhorn (basically a King trombonium copy) and the Yamaha 321S euphonium when I want a darker, more lyrical sound.