Cerveny C/F double tuba at BBC

[bort]

Just noticed this on the Baltimore Brass website. Looks neat, based on the price, I'd bet it plays "ok."

rsz_cervenydouble.jpg

[MartyNeilan]

Reminds me a lot of the original incarnation of my old Cerveny F with the quint valve, except the change valve is in the same spot as the large bore quint valve. Whoever buys this needs to keep the leadpipe stock, even if the receiver is just a hair small. The tighter leadpipe on these small F's is proportional to the size and taper of the instrument and gives a sweet sound. Looks like a cool horn, but given where Dave has priced it, it will probably not be the holy grail of F tubas. If I had the dough I would consider it for a solo F tuba.

[The Big Ben]

A double French horn had an F side for the lower notes and, when the text gets to a certain point, the player can switch to the Bb side for the high notes? I've played both a single F horn and a double F/Bb horn and, for me, I got much better results with the double horn.

Is the concept of this horn similar? CC for the low notes where the low end should be better and F on the higher notes? Considering how few of these double tubas have been made compared to single tubas, there must not be many or any advantages.

[NCSUSousa]

Is the concept of this horn similar? CC for the low notes where the low end should be better and F on the higher notes?

Yes. You understand the concept.
Unlike the F/Bb Horn, this one looks to me like it's designed to use the 5th valve to put this tuba in CC for low notes, keep it in F for normal operation.

Considering how few of these double tubas have been made compared to single tubas, there must not be many or any advantages.

Actually, Double Tubas are quite common. They just aren't called 'Double Tubas' because people prefer to call them 'compensated' tubas as they were named by their designer - Blaikley.
On the compensated 4v Eb tuba, the 4th valve is the change valve that puts the tubing lengths for valves 1,2 and 3 at BBb length. You could call it a Eb/BBb double tuba if you wanted. There's also the compensated 4v BBb design that could be called a BBb/FF double tuba. The 4th valve can also be used on the Blaikley design the same way that the 4th valve is used on a traditional design (as an alternate fingering for 1+3).

The double rotor used for this F/CC is no different (in concept) from the twice-thru piston used on the Eb/BBb 'compensating' design. The only real design difference here is that the 4th valve isn't the change valve - it's part of the regular line-up for either key and there's a separate change valve. It looks like the 5th valve only has 1 usage on this instrument since it's built with 4 normal valves in the regular lineup.

Here's another discussion on a similar instrument (F/BBb) that delved into a little more detail than I've posted above: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51206

[Tom Coffey]

One potential drawback is the lack of a traditional fifth valve (leaving aside the change valve, which is a different thing). For some reason, it is kind of optional for CC tubas, but playng an F well really requires a fifth valve. Cerveny made a lot of great horns, though, and I would not write this one off without trying it.

[MartyNeilan]

One potential drawback is the lack of a traditional fifth valve (leaving aside the change valve, which is a different thing). For some reason, it is kind of optional for CC tubas, but playng an F well really requires a fifth valve. Cerveny made a lot of great horns, though, and I would not write this one off without trying it.

There is just enough length in the leadpipe to add a .708 valve directly above the 1st valve. This is where the left hand operated sixth valve was on my tuba. It was a flat half step, and I found it very useful for alternate fingerings throughout the range of the horn. Of course, the added valve would be a single valve for the F side but could still be useful (sharp half step?) when playing on the CC side for low register intonation.
I think I would like this F/CC double more than the F/BBb double because it gives you more options for that nebulous low C.

[imperialbari]

The F/BBb compensator referred to:

viewtopic.php?p=440625#p440625

was made around 1980. It has a quite modern linkage.

This present F/CC has a very old type of linkage wit flat arms cut from thick nickel silver.

According the the BBC FaceBook page they cannot provide any rear shots of this tuba right now, as it is out on trial.

Klaus

[NCSUSousa]

The F/BBb compensator referred to: viewtopic.php?p=440625#p440625

According the the BBC FaceBook page they cannot provide any rear shots of this tuba right now, as it is out on trial.

The F/CC should be very similar from the back to the F/BBb. The front layout and main bugle are almost entirely the same.
The only major difference I see between the pictures is the way that the 3rd valve primary loop is routed. On the BBb, it runs behind the secondary loops and up behind 1st valve. On the CC, it runs straight out under the players hand and down (doesn't go behind the other valves).

Other minor differences resulting from the BBb vs CC secondary loops:
The way the 4th valve secondary loop gets out and goes around the main tuning slide. It's a minor difference and mostly visible from the front.
The s-curve pipe between valves 5 and 1 on the BBb version (only really visible from the back) that isn't needed on the CC version. This entire pipe is visible from the front on the CC.
Secondary loops on valves 1, 2 and 3 also have slightly shorter pipe, but the routing looks the same as the BBb from the front-side picture.

The thumb ring is different. The one on the F/CC Looks more like the ones in pictures of Mark's Piggy.
Of course there's also the difference between how the leadpipes enter the 1st valve, but that's already been commented upon.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I'll post pics of all angles of the horn when it arrives....another for the collection...
Mark

PS. In the meantime, if anyone has 'similar' double tubas, post some pics of them.
There are two Robb Stewart made Yamaha F/CC double tubas, and the Vince Simonetti collection has two double tubas-both BBb/F-a Lehmann and a York. Of course, there are also the Dr. Young double tuba creations made at the Gronitz factory.
Though none shown below are mine, here are:
A set of 'double tuba' rotary valves from J. Meinlschmidt:

The Cerveny BBb/F mentioned above:

The Gronitz BBb/ F double tuba-- front & back:


A BBb/F double tuba by Hermann Schmidt:

From the great website Horn- U-Copia, here is an Alexander BBb/F double tuba:

& a Weise CC/F double tuba:

& here is a Kruspe BBb/F double tuba:

[Craig F]

Actually, Double Tubas are quite common. They just aren't called 'Double Tubas' because people prefer to call them 'compensated' tubas as they were named by their designer - Blaikley.

This is correct. He called them “compensated” because that is what they are. The lower pitched side uses the same tuning slides as the higher pitched side. It then has “compensating” slides to add the appropriate length. On the other hand, French Horns are NOT compensating. The tuning slides for the F and Bb sides are 100% discrete. When playing the F side NO air passes through the Bb tuning slides. They are FULL double horns. They do make compensating French Horns but they are not preferred.

[EMC]

Looks like a neat little toy but yeah I've been told it isn't much of a player

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Horn arrived today. Very interesting item. It plays in CC OK, and then you press the rotor change and it plays quite nice in F. Bell is 14 3/8" diam. and about 36" tall.
Another horn for the 'herd.'
Mark

Here are some pics:










Only real 'damage' on the horn is a pushed 'ball buster' knob--doesn't leak...




1.75" bell garland

[Ulli]

Nice!
How much is the wight?

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Not sure but not too bad-- lighter than my KING rotor or piston CC for sure...
Mark

[bisontuba]

Hi-
A response from Cerveny-FYi-Mark

Hi Mark,

Well, very interesting, however we also do not have lot of information.
We think this tuba could be from 1930's to 50'. Nobody from living workers
or musicians remembers anything like this. There were only a few made in
past, like 1pc per year or so.
In 2002 we saw and repaired F/BBb tuba for a Bulgarian person who brought it
to us.

But we have never seen the F/CC tuba, the photo is the only one we have
seen, it is a very interesting instrument, may be only a few left in the
world or may be even only this one alone ?

The Synove means sons and C S R means Czechoslovakian Republic which was in existence between the Wars (i.e. should fall in the 1925-1930 period that we estimate).
Hradec Kralove is my native city, the place where we are making Cerveny istruments till present days.

Jiri