Super Lube Grease with PTFE and Degreasing

[Dan Schultz]

That's the ONLY grease I have on my bench. I've been using it for over ten years and have never had a slide come back stuck.

I use lacquer thinner to degrease the inner and outer slides.

I've also been known to smear on a dab of STP along with it.

[ghmerrill]

Dan: I'm very interested in your experience with this stuff.

For many years I used anhydrous lanolin and had no complaints -- but I was very careful about cleaning and reapplying it at intervals. This past year I switched to Dow Corning High-Vacuum Grease, which I think is fantastic as a slide lube -- except for one thing: I can't find anything it's soluble in. Luckily, at least in my applications, it doesn't seem to migrate anywhere, though I've seen reports of it migrating into valves. You need to use it only sparingly, and it sure isn't soluble in oil or water. So I'm not sure how it would migrate much.

Still, it would be nice to have a solvent for it. I've seen a bunch of things recommended: hexanes, pet ether, toluene, xylene, etc. Of these, I've tried xylene, and the grease seems to laugh that off without even blinking. I haven't tried MEK. The spec sheet for it says "It can be dispersed in kerosene, stoddard solvent, benzene, toluene, ethyl ether or petroleum ether." It may be soluble in kerosene, but if so, then it takes geological time. I'm not sure exactly what the intended semantics of "dispersed" is in the spec sheet. I am not at all sure it means "dissolved". So it would be nice to find an alternative that actually is soluble in something reasonable.

Is Super Lube truly soluble in some comment solvent? There are some tricky semantics here. I've found several things that I can use to "degrease" or "clean off" slides in the case of the High Vacuum Grease. That is, these appear to yield a clean and dry surface devoid of any grease. But I haven't found anything that actually dissolves the stuff. Do you have a solvent that works on the Super Lube? The test I use is to put a small glob in a little glass jar and then pour the purported solvent over it. So far, the High Vacuum Grease just laughs that off while doing push-ups.

[Dan Schultz]

Dan: I'm very interested in your experience with this stuff.....

I'm certainly not a chemist nor an expert at lubricants. I can tell you that I use 'Super Lube' grease on just about everything... including 3rd slides on trumpets/cornets in which case I first apply the grease and then put on some Ultra-Pure lamp oil to thin it out so the slide works freely.

I've not seen any problems with it migrating into valves to the point when it gums things up.

I flush rotors with lamp oil to chase out the heavier oils that I use on the bearing surfaces.

[ghmerrill]

That makes it sound as though the Superlube is soluble in kerosene (ultrapure lamp oil), or at least that it will "mix" with it in some way. I'll get some and try it out.

I do have about three lifetime's supply of the High Vacuum Grease (i.e., one tube) at this point; but it's useful for a variety of things.

[ghmerrill]

Uh, the next question is: Where can you get this stuff?

Does anyone actually carry it, or is it available for order on the web only?

It's gotten just about impossible to buy anything locally nowadays -- despite the constant pleas of all sorts of people to "buy local". I'd love to buy local. Just tell me where. It looks like the best I can do on this is "order and pickup at your local store" .

Anybody know of any stores you can actually walk into and buy it?

[Kevin Hendrick]

Uh, the next question is: Where can you get this stuff?

Does anyone actually carry it, or is it available for order on the web only?

It's gotten just about impossible to buy anything locally nowadays -- despite the constant pleas of all sorts of people to "buy local". I'd love to buy local. Just tell me where. It looks like the best I can do on this is "order and pickup at your local store" .

Anybody know of any stores you can actually walk into and buy it?

Here's their authorized distributors list:
http://www.super-lube.com/authorized-di ... zp-10.html

[ghmerrill]

Very funny .

My guess is that if I call the local stores on that list, NONE of them will have it. I know the ACE doesn't, I'd bet a lot that Fastenal doesn't (can't remember the last time they actually had something on site that I needed), same for HF, NAPA, etc. Grainger, maybe. But it's an hour away.

I'll try a few of them by phone, but I'll be astounded if they carry it.

What I was really asking was "So have any of you actually walked into a store and bought this stuff?" Need to be more careful in how I phrase things, I guess . Even places that say they have things "in the local store" don't actually have them IN THE LOCAL STORE. Just discovered this in ordering a compressor from Home Depot for my wife. Web site says it's available in stores -- it's just that there aren't any stores it's available in. A subtle difference that defies classical logic.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Need to be more careful in how I phrase things, I guess .

Good guess.

[Dan Schultz]

Uh, the next question is: Where can you get this stuff?

Does anyone actually carry it, or is it available for order on the web only?...

I usually order on-line...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-LUBE-SYNT ... 257c894cc6

In a pinch... I've had my local Ace Hardware order small tubes. There is also a 'kit' available that contains a small tube of grease and a needle oiler of regular oil. I carry the small tube and oiler in my mouthpiece bag.

[ppalan]

I use lacquer thinner to degrease the inner and outer slides.

Dan, I hope this doesn't sound like a dumb question but what's the best way get the grease out of the inside of the slide? I'm always afraid I'm just pushing it further into the slide to eventually wind up in the valves.

Pete

[Dan Schultz]

... what's the best way get the grease out of the inside of the slide? I'm always afraid I'm just pushing it further into the slide to eventually wind up in the valves.

I just use one of these with a wad of cloth through the eye. Maybe rotate it a bit while going it to wipe grease out instead of pushing it farther in.



I've never really thought much about it since the grease seems to break down pretty easily.

[saktoons]

I bought a tube at my local big box home improvement store. (This is not an endorsement of any particular home improvement store or any other depot.) It's not like I buy a tube every month, so perhaps they no longer stock it. But it has been there in the past.

I bought it to use on machinery and bicycle parts, though, not for use on my horns. I'm a little concerned with using something that is not made specifically for use on brass instruments. I usually stick with Hetman anything, except when I use Blue Juice on my piston valves when it's really cold. And honestly, anything I use is because others have recommended it.

Perhaps I'm being too cautious. (Particularly if the Tuba Tinker recommends it.) And perhaps I'm playing right into the hands of those firms that repackage standard lube products for use on brass instruments and triple the price.

[ralphbsz]

For many years I used anhydrous lanolin and had no complaints -- but I was very careful about cleaning and reapplying it at intervals. This past year I switched to Dow Corning High-Vacuum Grease, which I think is fantastic as a slide lube -- except for one thing: I can't find anything it's soluble in. Luckily, at least in my applications, it doesn't seem to migrate anywhere, though I've seen reports of it migrating into valves. You need to use it only sparingly, and it sure isn't soluble in oil or water. So I'm not sure how it would migrate much.

Still, it would be nice to have a solvent for it. I've seen a bunch of things recommended: hexanes, pet ether, toluene, xylene, etc. Of these, I've tried xylene, and the grease seems to laugh that off without even blinking. I haven't tried MEK. The spec sheet for it says "It can be dispersed in kerosene, stoddard solvent, benzene, toluene, ethyl ether or petroleum ether." It may be soluble in kerosene, but if so, then it takes geological time. I'm not sure exactly what the intended semantics of "dispersed" is in the spec sheet. I am not at all sure it means "dissolved". So it would be nice to find an alternative that actually is soluble in something reasonable.

I'm an old physicist, and I've used that stuff for vacuum and high pressure glass stuff. It is GREAT. I keep a tube at home, for plumbing projects.

The problem is: it is silicone based, so it not "soluble" in the usual sense (the silicone oil base will not really mix with organic solvents). There are some freons like TF that will "cut" or "thin" it so it can be wiped off more easily, but it is virtually impossible to remove the last trace of it, because all you are doing with things like paint thinner (stoddard solvent) is move it around. You will never end up with a grease-free surface, but only with a thin layer.

There are ways to get it off, but it requires destroying the base silicone oil chemically. Alternating treatments with concentrated dissolved KOH (potassium hydroxide) and piranha acid (mixture of sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide) will remove it. BUT: Those two substances are so dangerous, they should only be used by trained people in a lab. And they can't be used on metals.

My suggestion: Wipe it off with paper towels, and live with the stuff that remains.

[ghmerrill]

Do not use this stuff if refinishing the horn is on a future projects list. (But maybe afterwards...

But in that regard (i.e., its "embedding" in the metal and thus perhaps affecting replating), how does that differ significantly from the fairly wide variety of silicone-based synthetic valve and slide oils in use today?

[ghmerrill]

On Feb. 9, when I made my earlier posting to this topic, I put a dab (about the size of a pea) of the Dow-Corning High Vacuum Grease in a small glass jar and covered it completely with ultrapure lamp oil. I swished it around a lot on that day and the next, and there was no obvious change in the grease lump. Then I forgot about it.

Just now I was cleaning up and came across the jar. No grease lump. None at all. Gone. So this stuff does appear to dissolve in kerosene over time.

I'm now wondering how the result would work as fly line floatant. Might be worth some investigation.

In full disclosure and the interests of science: the glass jar had previously contained herring in cream sauce, but had been thoroughly cleaned prior to this experiment. So we can safely dismiss the effect of the herring or cream sauce on the outcome.

[tofu]

In full disclosure and the interests of science: the glass jar had previously contained herring in cream sauce, but had been thoroughly cleaned prior to this experiment. So we can safely dismiss the effect of the herring or cream sauce on the outcome.

Good to know it wasn't a red herring.

[ralphbsz]

Just now I was cleaning up and came across the jar. No grease lump. None at all. Gone. So this stuff does appear to dissolve in kerosene over time.

Cool. I would not have expected that, since it is basically a heavy silicone oil (with binders to bulk it up and make it stiff), which usually don't like to mix with carbon-based oils.

The good news: If you had taken a Corning-grease-polluted piece of brass, and soaked it in kerosene for a week, the thin film of silicone grease would now be in solution. You could rinse and wash it off with a lot more kerosene, leaving only an oil-polluted surface. And we know how to get rid of oils (for example for refinishing), because there are water-based degreasers for those. And I think floating in oil for a week wouldn't harm the brass at all.

In full disclosure and the interests of science: the glass jar had previously contained herring in cream sauce, but had been thoroughly cleaned prior to this experiment. So we can safely dismiss the effect of the herring or cream sauce on the outcome.

Delicious. I love herring, either sour or in cream sauce. Wouldn't want to pollute the herring with silicone oil.

[ghmerrill]

The good news: If you had taken a Corning-grease-polluted piece of brass, and soaked it in kerosene for a week, the thin film of silicone grease would now be in solution. You could rinse and wash it off with a lot more kerosene, leaving only an oil-polluted surface. And we know how to get rid of oils (for example for refinishing), because there are water-based degreasers for those. And I think floating in oil for a week wouldn't harm the brass at all.

Yeah, I'm a little surprised myself -- though the spec sheet does suggest that the grease is "dispersed" in kerosene. I'm thinking that maybe this creates a kind of "suspension". However, it does appear to mean that as a last resort in getting this off your valves and tubes, letting them sit in kerosene (or letting the kerosene sit in them) would effectively remove it. Similarly, I suppose, for some of the other solvents mentioned in the spec sheet.

I'm still curious what platers (like Anderson) do to remove silicone from the surfaces they deal with (and they must encounter this on a fairly regular basis). Maybe I'll just ask them.

[ghmerrill]

Impressive.

"Better living through chemistry" (~ 1935) -> "The miracles of science" (~ 1999)

[Dan Schultz]

Folks have wondered why I don't do any lacquering. It's simply because it's darned near impossible to get a surface clean with what's currently available.

I remember years ago I was involved in some of the very early experiments with 'Ink Jet Printing' on metals parts. Even the most sophisticated cleaners of thirty years ago still left residue behind in the form of chlorides, etc.

Then there was (is) the ongoing problem with automotive finishes 'fish-eyeing' because of silicone residue. Funny that the problem is cured by adding silicone to the paint!