Stranger Than Expected (Horn dorn)

[MikeW]

I was referring to this:

Isn't that the Sander(s ?) tuba that Gerard Hoffnung used to own ?
EDIT: actually, I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was made for a tour of Britain by the Sousa band. I think Hoffnung borrowed it and played it at one of the Hoffnung music festivals.

I thought that was in CC(C ?)

[bort]

Who is the person in the picture?

[eupher61]

And, the Hoffnung subcontra was made for Hoffnung

[toobagrowl]

So this beast is a true EEb subcontrabass tuba.......pitched one octave below the "normal" Eb tuba? Wow Gotta say it looks quite playable with its specs and overall design.

Communistic Cerveny from Kraslice from the 60-70's. Amati-Kraslice for Carl Fisher.

I think its a Bohland & Fuchs, imported by Carl Fischer.

Taken from horn-u-copia: "Carl Fischer (1849-1923) started as a dealer in New York in 1872, after immigrating from Germany, supplying sheet music and imported instruments from Europe.

In 1929/30, Greenleaf purchased the assets of Ludwig & Ludwig (percussion), Carl Fischers musical instrument department and the Soprani Company (accordions).

Fischer opened a division, Carl Fischer Musical Instrument Co. which then bought out York Band Instrument Co. in 1940. The manufacturing of York instruments went on until the 1970s at the York plant in Grand Rapids, Mi. under the directorship of the Carl Fischer Musical Instrument Co.. During this period Carl Fischer also imported many different musical instruments from Europe, marking them as Carl Fischer instruments. York instruments subsequently declined in quality."


"Bohland and Fuchs (Graslitz, Czechoslovakia) are established as a partnership in 1870, following the firm of Gustavus Bohland, which had been founded 20 years earlier, and flourished until 1945 when the firm was nationalized. By 1925, they had a workforce of 500. They built a doublephon in 1891, a sub-contrass bass tuba which is the largest ever built in 1912, a double trombone, and a quarter-tone trumpet.

Bohland-Fuchs Logo Bohland & Fuchs instruments carry different nationality signs; Austria, Bohemia (Bohmen), Czechoslovakia, Czecho-Slovakia and perhaps also Germany. A short history lesson might be useful to understand that and also to date the manufacture of a certain instrument.

Bohland & Fuchs was established in Graslitz in Bohmen, a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire (therefor the german spelling: Graslitz). Thus, the early instruments by Bohland & Fuchs are all marked Austria.

Bohmen - or Bohemia in English - was the most industrialized part of the Empire, but the majority of the population were not of German origin (except for Sudetenland, where Graslitz is located). The Czechs under Austrian supervision and the Slovaks under Hungarian supervison worked for freedom and in October 1918 a declaration of Czechoslovakian independence was issued. The first Czechoslovakian republic existed from 1918 until 1938. Instruments from this era are signed Czechoslovakia. It seems like they still used the German spelling Graslitz during this time, as most of the inhabitants of Sudetenland were Germans at this time.

In September 1938. Germany under Hitler was given Sudetenland (with Graslitz) in the Munchen Agreement. Then, Sudetenland became a part of Germany. In 1939 what was left of Czechoslovakia also became part of Germany, the protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. The few instruments from this German era (1938-1945) are signed Bohemia even though Graslitz did not belong to the protectorate. Correctly, they should have been Germany and maybe some were.

In 1945, after WWII, Sudetenland once again became Czechoslovakian and all musical instruments makers were centralized into one company. Amati (of Kraslice, Czech spelling of Graslitz). The new Czechoslovakian government did not want to be associated with things German, and most of the German population did flee to Germany. For example wind instrument makers the brothers Keilwerth, brass instrument makers Huttl and many craftsmen, for example those forming Kuhnl & Hoyer. Therefor many early Keilwerth, K&H and other contemporary German brass instruments seem to be copies of Bohland & Fuchs brass instruments.

Some instruments are signed Czecho-Slovakia. It may be as simple as just a two line word split, but If Bohland & Fuchs were following political decisions it may mean that these instruments were made 1918-1920. OR maybe during that short time 1938-1939 before the remnants of Czechoslovakia became the protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. If so, it is like those made 1938-1945 (or maybe 1939-1945 if these 1938-1939 are their predecessors) who are signed Bohemia.

It also seems like some earlier instruments are signed Bohemia. Even though the old Bohemia had been under Austrian rule for centuries it still existed as a juridical Kingdom. Therefor it is possible that those early Bohemia are post 1900, and possibly post 1914."


http://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/display.php

[bigtubby]

I think its a Bohland & Fuchs, imported by Carl Fischer.

Taken from horn-u-copia: "Carl Fischer (1849-1923) started as a dealer in New York in 1872, after immigrating from Germany, supplying sheet music and imported instruments from Europe.

... lots of important stuff snipped, read it above ...

A couple of people whose opinions I value by virtue of their experience also suggested Bohland & Fuchs.

Personally I'm on the fence about pedigree pending further information. The receiver inscription and the turned braces are very Cerveny-like but from different eras.

Having owned several Cerveny and Amati tubas from the early part of the second half of the 20th Century, there are some details on this instrument that don't line up: particularly the water key and backplates for lyre and strap rings.

This morning I sent photos and a request for identification to Amati Strunal U.S.A. and hope that they will be able to clarify.

[Ferguson]

Who is the person in the picture?

That looks like Dave Amason, SoCal tubist, web designer, and former owner of Big Brass dotcom
http://www.daveamason.com/web_1a.html

Ferguson

[bigtubby]

So this beast is a true EEb subcontrabass tuba.......pitched one octave below the "normal" Eb tuba? Wow Gotta say it looks quite playable with its specs and overall design.
rdions).

No, this is not a subcontrabass. It is merely a CONTRABASS EEb, just the same as a GG bugle is not a subcontrabass.

Why?

Because the standard Eb is a bass tuba (or tenor depending on how you look at it).

_MERELY_??? We prefer "pocket subcontrabass" as earlier suggested ...


[Edit] Seriously semantics aside, it is three half steps above a CCC subcontra and five above a BBB sub ...

[bigtubby]

Just now received an email confirming my hunch that this was not built by Cerveny:

According to the photos we do not think it is tuba made at Cerveny factory.
Not any of the characteristics (used parts, shape of it, type and shape of valve finger knobs) resemble anything we could have seen in any historical catalogues or museums or when repairing it. Even the serial number will not tell us anything.
So conclusion. This is not Cerveny tuba, more likely we guess this could be a German made tuba with skew valve outlays.

Now I wonder how to determine who the builder was? Perhaps someone on Horn-U-Copia?

[bigtubby]

1899 Sander sub-CC...

image.jpg

I may be missing something but this looks like a "regular" CC tuba (e.g. a whole step higher than a BBb tuba). Well not "regular" but maybe a monster CC like the York Monster Eb's?

It appears to be a single loop from the leadpipe to the bell - and looks to me to be in the rough neighborhood of the 16' of tubing one would expect of a CC tuba. The first and second valve circuits also look about right for a contrabass pitched instrument.

The EEb tuba in my OP is more like a tornister tuba or bicycle buglet - with a very compact wrap.

This is in "regular" (Bb I think? - will ask my brother) bugle pitch but is very compact to carry in a bicylist's pocket:

bicycle-buglet.jpg

Cerveny tornister with a very small 3/4 tuba and a smallish 5/4 tuba:

[Donn]

So, Eb alto, Eb bass, EEb contrabass. It's very simple.

If this were the domain of logic and universal standards, I believe we'd have to call the regular 52J etc. a C tuba rather than CC, am I right? because in the referenced octave notation, CC is at the bottom of the octave and BBb is at the top, so a CC tuba would be nearly an octave below BBb. But we don't care! Similarly, I doubt we care if it's logically a contrabass according to some notion of the standard wavelengths associated with contrabass instruments or whatever. For musical purposes, it's close enough to a contrabass. As for whether this thing is a subcontrabass, I'm going to leave it to apparently the only known owner of one, after he's had time to work out with it in the local polka band or whatever suits him.

[k001k47]

No, you have an EEb contrabass, just as traditionally the Bb trumpet is one octave above the Bb bass trumpet which is one octave above the BBb contrabass tuba... So, Eb alto, Eb bass, EEb contrabass. It's very simple.

Just like the EEb contrabass helicon "Majestic Monster". It falls between the traditional contrabass and subcontrabass. If it was one octave lower (at ~50 feet) we could call it a subcontrabass, as it is below the traditional subcontrabass.

It's a bass sub contra bass tuba! Every tubaist needs a pair:
CCC and FF and CC and F
BBBb and EEb and BBb and Eb

Well. . . Brass band charts list Eb and Bb bass so. . .
"Contrabass" BBb must be a bass tuba - the bariturd it's tenor counterpart.

By this logic, those openly wrapped C and Bb "subcontrabass" tubas are simply contrabass tubas. A true subcontra is then an octave belowOPs horn

[bigtubby]

Disclaimer
For the humor/winkie challenged please note that the tuba in question was referenced in the OP as an EEb contrabass.

FWIW I have no stake in this instrument falling at any particular point in a rather arbitrary system of nomenclature. OTOH I enjoyed the clever "pocket subcontrabass" suggestion earlier in this thread and continued that humor.

[k001k47]

Disclaimer
For the humor/winkie challenged please note that the tuba in question was referenced in the OP as an EEb contrabass.

FWIW I have no stake in this instrument falling at any particular point in a rather arbitrary system of nomenclature. OTOH I enjoyed the clever "pocket subcontrabass" suggestion earlier in this thread and continued that humor.

Well, I mentioned it because iit's like an EEb version of the "bubby" travel tuba Jonathan sells

[bigtubby]

Disclaimer
For the humor/winkie challenged please note that the tuba in question was referenced in the OP as an EEb contrabass.

FWIW I have no stake in this instrument falling at any particular point in a rather arbitrary system of nomenclature. OTOH I enjoyed the clever "pocket subcontrabass" suggestion earlier in this thread and continued that humor.

Well, I mentioned it because iit's like an EEb version of the "bubby" travel tuba Jonathan sells

Yes precisely - I own an original Cerveny tornister (on which the tuba that the "Mighty Midget" was cloned was based). This Carl Fischer is very similar conceptually: It is roughly the physical dimensions (although twice the weight) of a 3/4 BBb tuba but containing roughly 40% more tubing. The opposite of the huge but loosely wrapped horns that *look like* subcontrabass tubas.

[bigtubby]

Would you post a picture of the Carl Fischer tuba you are referencing?

The ones in the original post of this thread are the only ones I have so far.

[Donn]

Why

Because!

[bigtubby]

...

That's the same tuba pictured here:
http://www.daveamason.com/ubertuber/

I'd love to measure that horn but my eyeball measurements say that if its fundamental pitch is indeed C then it is pitched one whole step above a regular BBb tuba (the same as modern CC tubas). Where the "sub" comes from I can't guess, more (to use another arbitrary nomenclature system) a "monster CC" than a "sub CC".

[Donn]

I agree (about the fundamental), same as that 1899 bloat-o-phone - it's all in the taper.

[poomshanka]

Who is the person in the picture?

That looks like Dave Amason, SoCal tubist, web designer, and former owner of Big Brass dotcom
http://www.daveamason.com/web_1a.html

Ferguson

Confirmed, circa 20 years ago or so. Couldn't really find much center of pitch on it at the time. Miserable instrument.

[J.c. Sherman]

I'd trade precious parts of my anatomy for that tuba. Great find!!! Go play some Mahler 2 >:)